Post by TonyBombassolo on Oct 6, 2023 0:08:58 GMT
Background:
Robert Cooley was a lawyer who worked for the Chicago Outfit before flipping as part of Operation GAMBAT.
www.nytimes.com/1990/12/20/us/5-indicted-in-latest-inquiry-into-corruption-in-chicago.html
His testimony is below
1024
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4 IN RE: )
5 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
6 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
7
8
9
10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,
12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th
13 Floor, on the 22nd day of July, A.D. 1997, at
14 approximately 9:45 a.m.
15
16
17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
1025
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
8 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS, LTD.,
9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
11 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
13 District Council of Laborers.
14 ALSO PRESENT:
15 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
16 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
17 MR. JIM WAGNER,
18 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
19 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE;
20 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,
21 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,
22 Perlman & Nagelberg.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194
1026
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,
2 let's go on the record.
3 We are going to continue the hearing
4 and we presume you can hear us over at the
5 Midland Hotel, and we apologize. We had decided
6 to start this at nine o'clock and somehow or
7 other we managed to keep it a secret, so now we
8 are ready to proceed.
9 Sherman Carmell, you are about to
10 examine the witness. And, sir, you are still
11 under oath.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 ROBERT COOLEY,
14 called as a witness herein, having been
15 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
16 examined and testified further as follows:
17 CROSS EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. When you began your career as a
20 Chicago police officer, what ward did you live
21 in?
22 A. It was the 10th Ward. No. I am
23 sorry. I am not sure what my ward was. I worked
24 in the 10th Ward. I worked out there in South
1027
1 Chicago. It was the 10th Ward. My ward, I am
2 not certain which ward mine was.
3 Q. Your father was a police officer?
4 A. Yes, sir, he was.
5 Q. Your grandfather was a police officer?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do
8 you have?
9 A. I have six brothers and two sisters.
10 Q. And how many of your brothers were or
11 are police officers?
12 A. Four of them were policemen.
13 Q. Now, during the time that you were a
14 police officer and an attorney, you were familiar
15 with the term patronage system, weren't you?
16 A. Yes, sir, I was.
17 Q. And the city for purposes -- political
18 purposes, the democratic party was divided into
19 wards, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
21 Q. The ward had a committeeman and had an
22 alderman, is that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And jobs with the City of Chicago came
1028
1 from sponsorship through a ward person, be it the
2 ward committeeman or the alderman, isn't that
3 your understanding?
4 A. That for the most part was the way it
5 seemed to work, yes, sir.
6 Q. Were you familiar at all with either
7 the operation of the office at the 10th Ward or
8 the 11th Ward as far as being open at night for
9 citizens of the ward to come to see the alderman?
10 A. Well, I believe I knew Alderman
11 Vrdolyak was out there at that time and they were
12 open quite often different hours of the day and
13 night. He worked late quite often.
14 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions.
15 If you don't know these, just tell me because
16 many of these are just based on the fact I was
17 born and raised in the City of Chicago.
18 But citizens of a ward who wanted
19 something, be it better garbage pickup or help on
20 traffic tickets, would come to the alderman,
21 either in person or by phone, was that your
22 understanding?
23 A. I believe that was and probably still
24 is being done.
1029
1 Q. And these are ordinary citizens in
2 many cases?
3 A. In a lot of cases, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, the neighborhood that you have
5 referred to and has been referred to as 26th
6 Street, Chinatown, that was made up of two wards,
7 wasn't it, the 1st ward and the 11th ward?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. Part of that
9 area was the 1st ward and part of it was the 11th
10 ward.
11 Q. In your direct testimony, you referred
12 to the fact that the Mayor of Chicago lived in
13 that area, and he lived in the 11th ward, isn't
14 that right?
15 A. I believe that's true, yes, sir.
16 Q. An area that's generally called, if
17 you know, called Bridgeport?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And Bridgeport, during the time that
20 you knew it, was primarily people of Irish
21 descent, is that a fair statement?
22 A. A lot of Irish there, yes, sir.
23 Q. And the 1st ward had a number, or a
24 substantial number of people of Italian descent,
1030
1 is that correct?
2 A. In two of the sections of the 1st
3 ward, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, you said that ordinary citizens
5 in the 26th Street area looked up to people who
6 you identified as organized crime figures. Do
7 you remember that?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did.
9 Q. And these people, or some of these
10 people, might not have known that the persons
11 that they looked up to were organized crime
12 figures, is that a fair statement?
13 A. Well, I think most of the leaders of
14 the group, again, I would have to personally say
15 that I would think most of the people there
16 realized who they were and what they were. I'm
17 certain that they did.
18 Q. And knowing that, these ordinary
19 citizens would come up and speak to these
20 persons?
21 A. Sometime -- well, you know, a lot of
22 times, they would and others wouldn't. Others
23 would just sit there and watch them go by. I
24 mean, again, it's a very -- it's an interesting
1031
1 neighborhood where everything is in like little
2 sections. I mean, there were certain people that
3 I would see out there that would never come out
4 and talk with anybody. They would sit and watch
5 us as we'd come back and forth. Certain ones
6 would never come into the restaurants or the
7 places where I would go.
8 Q. These various sections were pretty
9 close knit, wouldn't you say?
10 A. Oh, there's no question about that.
11 Q. And there were people who grew up in
12 the section, whose fathers were from the section,
13 when I say fathers, parents were from the
14 section, grandparents were from the section and
15 the children were raised in the section, isn't
16 that a fair statement?
17 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, when you first met -- when did
19 you first meet Marco D'Amico?
20 A. I met him when I was a police officer
21 working out of the 18th District. That was about
22 '65, '66.
23 Q. And at that time, you knew Marco
24 D'Amico as a gambler?
1032
1 A. When I first met him, yes, sir, he was
2 a person I was introduced to and I made bets
3 through him initially through Ricky Borelli.
4 Q. So he was a bookmaker?
5 A. I knew him to be a bookmaker, yes,
6 sir.
7 Q. When did you come to know that Marco
8 D'Amico, as far as you were concerned, was more
9 than just a bookmaker?
10 A. When I started practicing law and he
11 began referring me business and bringing me
12 business from certain families in the Chicago
13 area.
14 Q. So it was sometime after 1970?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So --
17 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification of
18 what he means by families? He said families.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. So between 19 --
21 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
22 that point?
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm missing what
24 you're saying.
1033
1 MR. BOSTWICK: He said families. He said
2 certain families and I was wondering if we could
3 get a clarification before Mr. Carmell comes on
4 as to what he means by certain families.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I guess I sort of
6 missed it. I got his answer that he started
7 sending him business.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Business from certain
9 families.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I use that term in
11 relation to certain -- during the time that I
12 started practicing, I began to realize that these
13 organized crime, I call them families at times, I
14 call them groups --
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Groups.
16 THE WITNESS: -- I call them --
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: You're not just
18 referring to, like, the Murphy family or the
19 Jones family?
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I'm talking
21 about --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Organizations is what
23 you're talking about?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, yes, sir.
1034
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
2 BY MR. CARMELL:
3 Q. So between approximately 1960 and
4 sometime after 1970, you know Marco D'Amico only
5 as a bookmaker and gambler, is that right?
6 A. Well, again, I knew he was a bit more
7 as I got to know him because as I gambled and as
8 I was introduced to different major bookmakers,
9 and we had a major card game at my house, and
10 then there was one time when a card cheat got
11 into the card game and we found out about it and
12 I realized probably at that time that he was more
13 than just a bookmaker because they straightened
14 this person out.
15 Q. But it wasn't until you knew Marco
16 D'Amico for a number of years and knew him
17 personally that you heard from Marco D'Amico that
18 he was anything other than a bookmaker or a
19 gambler, isn't that true?
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
21 Q. Well, let me try it another way. How
22 did you -- did you ever learn from Marco D'Amico
23 directly that he was other than a gambler and a
24 bookmaker?
1035
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And that arose because of the long
3 personal relationship that you and he had had
4 from the 1960s on, isn't that correct?
5 A. Well, from the late '60s on, yes, sir.
6 Q. What I'm getting at, when you first
7 met Marco D'Amico, he didn't raise his hand and
8 announce to you, I want to tell you that I'm a
9 street crew boss, did he?
10 A. Well, not as such, but, again, would
11 drop hints and would -- he also took me over,
12 after a short time over to the social club he
13 belonged to and just being in there, you could
14 see that certain things were going on and it was
15 more than just a group of people meeting socially
16 to play cards and whatever.
17 Q. And from that, you surmised that he
18 had a position that was different than being just
19 a bookmaker or a gambler, is that right?
20 A. I saw from his associations and from
21 the other people that were coming and the people
22 he was meeting with that he was more than just
23 merely a bookmaker, yes, sir.
24 Q. While a police officer between 1962
1036
1 and 1970, did you place bets with Marco D'Amico?
2 A. Yes, sir, towards the end of my career
3 in the police department, yes, sir, I did.
4 Q. Did you receive any bribes from Marco
5 D'Amico?
6 A. No, sir, not when I was a police
7 officer, no, sir.
8 Q. You began practicing law in 1970. Can
9 you tell me where your first office was?
10 A. When I first began, I was renting
11 space from Allan Ackerman at 100 North LaSalle.
12 Q. Allan Ackerman is a well-known state
13 and federal criminal attorney in this area, is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes, sir, he is.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he is. Yes, he
17 is. I attest to that. I've seen him in action
18 many times.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Did you sit in on any of the card
21 games in Allan Ackerman's office during that
22 time?
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. And how long did you spend in that
1037
1 office?
2 A. I was with Alan probably for a year,
3 year and a half, maybe. Then I opened my own --
4 then I believe I went and I started renting
5 space, I believe, with Katz, Hirsch & Weiss in
6 the same building and then I got my own office in
7 the same building.
8 Q. How long were you with the Katz --
9 renting space in the Katz firm?
10 A. Probably maybe about a year, year and
11 a half.
12 Q. What was your practice when you began?
13 A. Basically traffic work, criminal
14 work.
15 Q. Had you begun at that time to fix
16 cases?
17 A. From the very beginning, yes, sir, I
18 did.
19 Q. And in the very beginning, the cases
20 that you fixed, did they all come from persons
21 that you would describe as being members of
22 organized crime?
23 A. Well, not all, but a lot of them, a
24 lot of my early business was gambling, other
1038
1 cases, in fact, from organized crime people, yes,
2 sir.
3 Q. But you have cases from let's just
4 call them ordinary citizens -- I don't mean by
5 that that they may be ordinary, but I am trying
6 to distinguish between those that you have
7 referred to as organized crime. You had other
8 than organized crime persons' cases, is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes, sir. I never advertised when I
11 first started. All of my business came from
12 associations or from friends or friends of
13 friends. I would get referrals from some
14 policemen that I knew in different areas, I would
15 get referrals from people that just met me.
16 Again, a majority of my business was probably
17 from Marco and people such as himself. That's
18 where the majority of my business came from.
19 Q. The non-majority business, did you fix
20 those cases also?
21 A. During that time, a lot of matters --
22 I would make sure I won. I won most of my cases
23 in the beginning and if I couldn't win it on the
24 up and up, I would certainly pay if I had to.
1039
1 Q. You testified that after cases were
2 won, the records would be expunged. Do you
3 remember that?
4 A. A lot of times, yes, sir, for a lot of
5 my clients. They would want that done.
6 Q. And that was a state statute that
7 permitted expungement, is that correct?
8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
9 Q. So there was nothing devious about
10 getting a case expunged, is that correct? You
11 could file a petition under the state statute?
12 A. You could do that, but, again, we used
13 it for a different purpose. We used it so people
14 could have a clean record and get supervision for
15 a second or third or fourth time. In that sense
16 it was probably devious. During that time you
17 were only allowed to get supervision one time.
18 In other words, if you get arrested and charged
19 with something and you are found not guilty, you
20 were entitled to file a petition and have the
21 entire record expunged, but you were not supposed
22 to get it a second time. We would get somebody
23 supervision sometimes on a case and then at the
24 end of the period sometimes we would bribe the
1040
1 judge to make it supervision, terminate it in
2 stanter. He was given supervision for one day
3 and then it was -- then you could go and get it
4 expunged afterwards. Then if he gets arrested a
5 month or two or three months later, it would show
6 it as his first arrest and you could get him
7 supervision all over again.
8 Q. Staying with the expungement statute
9 for a moment again, as you understood it, anybody
10 who was convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony
11 could have the arrest and all of the materials
12 expunged according to statute by a petition filed
13 with the court, is that correct?
14 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
15 Q. And if a person had been placed on
16 supervision, two years after the supervision had
17 ended, the individual could then petition for
18 expungement under the statute, isn't that
19 correct?
20 A. That's the way the statute read, but
21 we worked around that.
22 Q. But you testified that it was expunged
23 and the expungement came from a court order, is
24 that right?
1041
1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
2 Q. And in some cases you manipulated the
3 sentence, supervision or whatever it may be, in
4 order to make the person eligible under the
5 statute for expungement, isn't that correct?
6 A. Well, yes, and sometimes we just
7 forgot about the statute and the judges sometimes
8 would just forget about the statute and would
9 just expunge it as a matter of course.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: The state's attorney
11 has a right to object to that, does he not?
12 THE WITNESS: Again, in the early days the
13 system was very interesting and they just
14 wouldn't. They just would let it go by and they
15 would say nothing about it.
16 MR. CARMELL: The statute is mandatory. The
17 statute is mandatory and it is mandatory for --
18 it was changed in the '70s, 1971 to make it apply
19 to cases before 1971 and it is a state statute.
20 I can give you the reference if you want it.
21 BY MR. CARMELL:
22 Q. Now, Mother's -- the Mother's bar,
23 where was that located?
24 A. It was on Division Street and it was
1042
1 between Dearborn, Dearborn and State on the north
2 side of the street, on Division Street.
3 Q. And during what period of time did you
4 frequent Mother's with the group that you
5 testified about?
6 A. I started going there when I was in
7 law school and I was a policeman and I was in law
8 school during that time and I lived a short
9 distance from there. I lived only about a half a
10 mile from there.
11 Q. It watts a very popular bar with young
12 people during that period of time, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. It was what was called or may be
15 called a happening place, it was a place to be if
16 you were young and on the street?
17 A. It was a very interesting place, yes,
18 sir.
19 Q. And when you went to Mother's during
20 the time that you were in law school, where
21 would -- what part of the bar would you go to?
22 A. Well, as I remember, it was a
23 downstairs section and that's where all of the
24 real activity was and I would hang there, I would
1043
1 hang in Butch McGuire's, I would hang in
2 different bars up and down the street there.
3 Those were my spots most every day.
4 Q. When did you get to the end of the bar
5 at Mother's that you described in your direct
6 testimony?
7 A. When did I get to the end of the bar?
8 Q. Yes. When did they let you in to that
9 end?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Well, as I understood it, there was a
12 part of the bar that you talked about that was
13 reserved for a group of people?
14 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection. I think he was
15 talking about another bar.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. I wasn't talking about at Mother's. I
18 was talking about later on.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Faces?
21 A. Later on in Faces.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Faces, Faces.
23 BY THE WITNESS:
24 A. And at Ditka's.
1044
1 BY MR. CARMELL:
2 Q. And Mother's was the situation -- I am
3 sorry. Mother's was the situation where the --
4 there had been a fight and three young persons
5 had been charged with beating up a bartender, is
6 that right?
7 A. Oh, there were a lot more than three.
8 As I remember, there were a whole bunch of them,
9 but there were three in particular that the
10 parents were concerned about.
11 Q. Let's talk about Faces then for a
12 minute because I confused the name. That also
13 was a happening place, wasn't it?
14 A. That was a nightclub, one of the most
15 popular nightclubs probably in the city.
16 Q. And there were a lot of legitimate
17 people who went there, weren't there?
18 A. Oh, yes, sir.
19 Q. And did you go there while you were a
20 police officer?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. When did you begin going there?
23 A. When I got involved with these people,
24 when I began hanging with them because it was a
1045
1 private club and you were supposed to pay a
2 membership and I never paid a membership because
3 I was with them. They just let me come in.
4 Q. It was very popular and it was usually
5 very crowded, isn't that correct?
6 A. Most of the time, yes, sir.
7 Q. And you had an area at the bar where
8 you would spend your time with this group, is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And the group could consist of
12 anywhere from 6 to 10 to 15 or 20 people, is that
13 right?
14 A. There was usually a good size crowd
15 around them, yes, sir.
16 Q. And not all of the people were there
17 always at the same time, is that right?
18 A. Well, there were three or four that
19 were -- just about every day were there. I mean,
20 others were there and were not there, but there
21 were Butchie -- at one time Butchie -- I am
22 sorry, not Butchie, but Larry, Richie, Larry and
23 Richie.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
1046
1 the last names if we are going to go through
2 this.
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A. Well, Larry Pusiteri, I think Richie
5 Catazone and a couple of others were always
6 there. When I say always, I mean almost always
7 on Wednesday and Friday nights. They would be
8 there sometimes other nights during the week too,
9 but others were sometimes there and were
10 sometimes not there and people would come and
11 people would go.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And I believe you mentioned something
14 about that the cute girls in the place would come
15 to that area of the bar, is that right?
16 A. People were -- certain cute females
17 were invited, not too many strange males were
18 invited. They didn't like the competition.
19 Q. And at any given time, how many
20 females would be in this group?
21 A. At any time probably as many females
22 as there were males, sometimes more.
23 Q. And to your understanding, were a
24 number of these females, if I can say, citizens,
1047
1 just people from the neighborhood or working
2 girls, and I mean by working girls, legitimately
3 working girls?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was also a very big place, I am
6 talking about Faces, for girls to come to?
7 A. Oh, yes. It was one of the happening
8 places in town.
9 Q. And Faces is located right in a very
10 popular area for young people, wasn't it?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. In fact, it was right around Faces
13 when the Bulls won that -- one of their
14 championships that the cars got overturned and
15 the young people had spilled out into the
16 street. Are you aware of that area?
17 A. I was -- I don't believe I was around
18 when the Bulls won -- started winning their
19 championships.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a very small
21 area of very close -- there is Butch McGuire's,
22 Mother's, what's next to that, Treetops or --
23 THE WITNESS: No, but see Faces was a little
24 bit down the street. Faces was a little bit
1048
1 south of there. You had Butch McGuire's, you had
2 Mother's and you had a couple of other spots on
3 Division Street within about a two-block area and
4 then if you go up to State Street and you make a
5 right turn and you go south, it was about three
6 blocks up. It was past -- I lived in Newberry
7 Plaza which was about two blocks from Division
8 Street and you veer off on the side to Rush
9 Street and Faces was on Rush Street. It was
10 another block or two down.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Relatively close
12 proximity?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. We walked back and forth
14 a lot of times from Division Street to those
15 places.
16 BY MR. CARMELL:
17 Q. How old were you during this period of
18 time?
19 A. Well, I was a policeman when I was
20 20. That was in '62. Around '70, I was 28, 30
21 years old, and moved on up from there.
22 Q. Were the people who were within this
23 group that you've described about the same age?
24 A. Some were older than us. I mean, but,
1049
1 some of us -- like I say, Richie was, Richie had
2 to be a good 10 years or more older than us.
3 Q. He was an old 32 or 33, yeah.
4 A. He was an old 40 at the time.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But there were some people older.
7 There were some older people. Marco was a bit
8 older than me. Some of the others, now, Bobby
9 was younger than me. Bobby Abbinanti was a few
10 years younger than me. They were various ages.
11 Q. Was there a lot of drinking?
12 A. On occasion, I mean, yes. Some of
13 these people drank a lot. Marco had a real bad
14 drinking problem. Others drank and obviously
15 were able to hold it.
16 Q. There were occasions where fights
17 broke out within the group, isn't that right?
18 A. Not within the group. Usually if a
19 fight broke out, it was some poor stranger coming
20 by and maybe talking to one of the girls and
21 somebody would get upset and these guys would do
22 a job on some people in there.
23 Q. Now, for what period of time did you
24 spend at Faces, by years, with this group?
1050
1 A. Probably three, four years.
2 Q. And when did that end?
3 A. Well, when I moved away from the
4 neighborhood, when I moved out to the suburbs,
5 then I would come down maybe once a week, once
6 every couple weeks or whatever. I moved away in,
7 let's see, about '82, '83 is when I moved out to
8 the suburbs.
9 Q. Now, how long a period of time did you
10 have an office by yourself? You moved away from
11 the Katz firm, I believe it is.
12 A. When I moved away, when I moved away
13 from Katz, it was to get my own office. I had an
14 office on the same floor where Johnny then moved
15 their office next door to me after we became
16 associated. I stayed there until I broke away
17 from them. Then I moved to 180 North and I moved
18 in with Bruce Wexler and some other attorneys up
19 there and I stayed there for about two, three
20 years, and then I formed a partnership with
21 Senator Lemke out on the south side and I moved
22 out to Archer Avenue on the south side.
23 Q. Was it a southern suburb that you
24 moved to?
1051
1 A. My own residence was in the southwest
2 suburbs, but my office was still in Chicago. It
3 was over on Archer Avenue in Chicago there.
4 Q. And how did your practice change, if
5 at all, when you formed your partnership with, or
6 moved in with Senator Lemke?
7 A. Well, I began a full service
8 partnership. I started doing -- we took in
9 everything from wills and from property matters
10 to personal injury. I did everything. At that
11 time, I was trying to break away from the
12 criminal practice and I probably had maybe 20
13 percent, 25 percent criminal work and the rest
14 was basically civil and civil related.
15 Q. And for what period of time were you
16 with Senator Lemke, the years?
17 A. For about three, four years, up until
18 a couple years before I began doing the work with
19 the Justice Department.
20 Q. And you began work with the Justice
21 Department in March of 1986, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
23 Q. And you left the City of Chicago
24 permanently in what year?
1052
1 A. '89. I believe it was November. It
2 was late in the year, November, December of '89.
3 Q. Now, the 20 percent of your criminal
4 business with -- 20 percent of the business that
5 was criminal while with Senator Lemke, did all
6 that business come from Marco D'Amico and people
7 like him?
8 A. No. I had tried to break away from
9 them a few years before that. I had a bad
10 situation with Marco where they referred a case
11 to me, Frank Renella, and while I was
12 representing Frank Renella, it was brought to my
13 attention that he was a stool pigeon who had been
14 informing on some dope dealers and when I was
15 told that, I knew that something would happen to
16 Frank when they found out and I went and warned
17 him, and when I warned him, I was told I was
18 going to be killed afterwards for that, for not
19 doing what I was supposed to do.
20 Q. Who told you that?
21 A. Well, somebody called me and warned me
22 and I left town and when I came back, I talked to
23 Marco about that.
24 Q. Did you then stop doing business,
1053
1 criminal business, with the people we've talked
2 about?
3 A. For a short period of time, yes, sir.
4 Q. How long?
5 A. I'd say it was six months to a year.
6 I stopped doing business with Marco and Marco
7 indicated, of course, he would never give me more
8 business, et cetera, and I told him I didn't want
9 their business. I was still getting some other
10 cases. But that was one of the reasons, again,
11 why I had broken away from these people and I
12 didn't want their business at that time.
13 Q. Did you end your social relationship
14 with Marco D'Amico?
15 A. For a period of time, yes, sir.
16 Q. How long?
17 A. I'd say it was about maybe six months
18 to a year.
19 Q. Did you continue during that six
20 months to a year to frequent the various bars in
21 Chicago that you had talked about?
22 A. Not those bars. I began to spend a
23 lot more time around 26th Street, in that area,
24 rather than going down to the Rush Street and
1054
1 those places. I would still on occasion go down
2 there, but I began spending a lot more time right
3 there in the 26th Street area and in Chinatown.
4 I had been referred that case by Pat
5 Marcy with the Chinese people and I had become
6 very friendly with the Chinese people, with On
7 Leong, and I began spending time both in
8 Chinatown and also in 26th Street.
9 Q. With reference to the On Leong case,
10 you testified that the On Leong group paid you
11 $100,000, is that correct?
12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
13 Q. Are you aware that Wilson Moy told the
14 FBI that he had paid you $150,000?
15 A. Wilson Moy lied then to the FBI.
16 Q. So the 302 that we have in evidence
17 here in which Wilson Moy says that he gave you
18 $150,000, of which he took $25,000 and you kept
19 $25,000, is a lie?
20 A. Oh, yes, sir. I brought all this to
21 their attention when I came in. There had been a
22 problem when I was in New York, I was
23 representing the same people on a matter in
24 Boston from Eddie Chin, from the main Chinese
1055
1 individual in New York, and while I was in New
2 York, I was questioned as to how much I got paid
3 on my case, and I wouldn't tell them because I,
4 for whatever reason, got the impression that
5 Wilson had pocketed something for himself on that
6 money out of New York, and when I came back, I
7 was invited to a convention back in Chicago, and
8 when I was there, I was with Wing, who was one of
9 their main enforcers and Wing confronted Wilson
10 Moy about the amount that they had really paid me
11 and how much he had pocketed, and I had a little
12 discussion then with Wilson Moy about that
13 indicating that, you know, I don't know or care
14 how much he got, you know, I wasn't going to tell
15 these people. Well, he beefed on himself and he
16 apparently told them that he had pocketed -- he
17 told the people in New York he had pocketed the
18 additional money. Marcy questioned me about
19 that.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the, aside from
21 what is true now, what is --
22 MR. CARMELL: Exhibit 42.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just outline for me,
24 because there's a question --
1056
1 MR. CARMELL: It appears on Page 3, and
2 taking my cue from my fellow counselor, I'm going
3 to read the part.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Exhibit 42?
5 MR. CARMELL: Yes. It's page 3.
6 BY MR. CARMELL:
7 Q. Quote, "Concerning Cooley's fee, Moy
8 said Cooley told him jury trial would cost about
9 $75,000." Let me skip down because I'll get to
10 the sentence, the one sentence. Quote,
11 "According to Moy, the Olma, O-l-m-a, was
12 charged a total of $150,000. Of this Moy
13 maintained 125,000 went to Cooley and Wilson Moy
14 and Eddie Chan skimmed an additional 25,000 which
15 they split."
16 And the sum and substance of it is
17 your testimony is that that was a lie?
18 A. Well, again, Wilson Moy himself only
19 gave me 10,000 initially and then 40,000 after
20 the case, and I went to New York and I received
21 the additional 50,000 from Eddie when I was
22 brought to New York because they wanted to pay me
23 there. So actually Wilson only paid me 50,000.
24 I got the other 50,000 from Eddie back in New
1057
1 York.
2 Q. Whatever may be said of who gave what,
3 your testimony is that you received only $100,000
4 for the On Leong case?
5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. It was
6 actually -- it wasn't the On Leong case. It was
7 Lenny Chow and two other people. It was on a
8 murder case.
9 Q. I want to talk about your testimony
10 concerning the dice game that took place a few
11 blocks away from the Hungry Hound Restaurant. Do
12 you remember that testimony?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And you testified that you were there
15 for several years in 1978, maybe to early '80s,
16 is that correct?
17 A. It was somewhere around that time,
18 yes, sir.
19 Q. And how many times would you have
20 attended that dice game during that period?
21 A. A number of occasions. Probably, I'd
22 say, a dozen or more times I would stop in.
23 Q. You testified that all kinds of people
24 were at that game, is that right?
1058
1 A. Well, there were a lot of people. A
2 lot of people were at the game, yes, sir.
3 Q. And that there was a lot of -- it was
4 a dice game, there was a lot of yelling and
5 shouting that went on at the game?
6 A. Oh, yes. It was quite often very
7 noisy in there. Again, it wasn't a couple
8 blocks. It was down the block. I don't believe
9 it was two blocks away. It was across the street
10 and down the block on the north side of the
11 street, but it wouldn't have been two blocks away
12 from there.
13 Q. Were there, on the occasions you were
14 there, were there people who you did not
15 recognize or wouldn't identify as being organized
16 crime people in the game?
17 A. Well, there were people I didn't
18 know. I mean, there were certainly, I'm sure,
19 some gamblers there that may have just strictly
20 been gamblers and not organized crime people.
21 Q. Now, you got into the game, or got
22 into the room because somebody who was known
23 brought you to the game, isn't that right?
24 A. Well, I did not call Larry to tell him
1059
1 I was coming that night. I just went on the spur
2 of the moment. I remember I went there with Cal
3 Sirkin the first time.
4 Q. And when you went there, the person
5 behind the door saw you and wouldn't let you in
6 until he saw Cal Sirkin, isn't that right?
7 A. The person that was there, yes, sir.
8 The person that was there would not let me in
9 when I first -- when I knocked.
10 Q. Now, you said that certain people
11 stood around, or sat around, didn't play the
12 game. Do you recall that?
13 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
14 Q. You were one of them?
15 A. I was one of them.
16 Q. And you mentioned Rich Catazone, he
17 was one, is that correct?
18 A. On occasion, Richie would be there.
19 There were a few times when Richie would be
20 there, yes, sir.
21 Q. And he wouldn't be playing?
22 A. I don't recall Richie playing the
23 game, not when I was there.
24 Q. And your testimony was on several
1060
1 occasions a person you identified as Leo Caruso
2 was there?
3 A. On a couple of occasions, yes, sir.
4 Q. And did you ever see him at the game,
5 playing the game?
6 A. I never saw him playing, no, sir.
7 Q. Could he have been playing the game?
8 A. I mean, he may have on occasion, but
9 when I saw him, I didn't notice him playing at
10 the game. He was just there.
11 Q. And how long would you spend at the
12 game?
13 A. I might be there an hour, hour and a
14 half, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little
15 less.
16 Q. And what would you do while you were
17 there?
18 A. Just chitchat with people.
19 Q. So you were not watching the game at
20 all times?
21 A. I mean, I would be watching it. I'd
22 be curious when there would be a lot of activity,
23 I'd watch somebody win and lose. But, again, I
24 say I never played. I may have played once or
1061
1 twice for some short period of time, but dice was
2 not my game, and, you know, I just basically
3 would be there because I liked being there.
4 Q. How big was the room?
5 A. It was a good size room. Well, you
6 walked through the front, you went through the
7 front part first, it was like a store, it would
8 have been a store, probably, then there was an
9 areaway you walked back and you go back into a
10 big room in the back, a much bigger room in the
11 back, which then would lead out somewhere to the
12 alley. I guess, I was told they had an escape
13 route out there which would have gotten them out
14 the back in case there was trouble.
15 Q. How big was the room where the one
16 dice table was, where it was being played?
17 A. The room was actually probably a
18 little bit bigger than this, the room we're in.
19 Q. Do you have any -- can you give any
20 dimensions?
21 A. Oh, I don't know. This room is maybe
22 about 25 feet, 30 feet.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: About 20 by 50. What
24 do you say, gentlemen?
1062
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A. I'd say the room was probably about
3 the same size as this.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe a little bit
5 longer than 50, a little bit longer than 50.
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject one
7 comment. You characterized it as one dice
8 table. He may -- you know, the record will stand
9 for itself, but I think he testified yesterday
10 that there might have been two.
11 MR. CARMELL: I believe his testimony was
12 there was another room where there was a dice
13 table, but at least he testified to one was in
14 use.
15 BY THE WITNESS:
16 A. No. I am saying this is a long time
17 back. I remember when you walked in, there would
18 be one table they would be playing at that was
19 directly in front of us as we were there. There
20 was like standing room and room to walk back a
21 little bit behind it. And I am almost sure over
22 a little bit to the right of that as you walk in,
23 I am pretty sure there was another dice table.
24 There was a table of sorts. I am pretty sure it
1063
1 was another dice table. Again, I am pretty
2 sure -- I am almost sure there were times when
3 there would be a couple of games going on, but,
4 again, I am not positive of that. I am pretty
5 sure there was a second dice table in there.
6 Whether it was being used or not I don't remember
7 right now.
8 Q. How many people would be in the room
9 at any given time?
10 A. Oh, I'd say probably 30 people, 30
11 people, maybe a few more.
12 Q. Now, the person you identified as
13 Frank Caruso, how many times did you see him in
14 that dice game during the period of time?
15 A. On a couple of occasions I saw him in
16 there.
17 Q. And did you ever see him playing?
18 A. I don't recall him playing. I don't
19 recall seeing him play. I just remember him
20 being there with a few other people.
21 Q. When you say with a few other people,
22 what do you mean by that?
23 A. There would be three or four or five
24 people just like standing in the back of the
1064
1 scenes, just milling around there. They had food
2 and stuff that was laid out there and whatever
3 and stuff for you to drink if you wanted
4 something to drink.
5 Q. So there was -- I am going to
6 grandiose it calling it a buffet. There was a
7 table there of food and it was free to go back
8 there and get food and you would see a person
9 identified as Frank Caruso on occasion, on the
10 occasions you saw him, at least one of the places
11 that you saw him was at that food table?
12 A. And milling around the room. It was
13 like a bizarre setting. As I say, the room was
14 relatively -- a relatively dark room. There were
15 lights in there, but it was a relatively dark
16 room. It was like a very interesting
17 environment. It was a very electric environment
18 in there.
19 Q. Returning for a minute to your
20 practice, you were very careful, were you not,
21 not to discuss the cases -- well, strike that.
22 If you took a case, you did not tell
23 the person who gave you the gambling case that
24 you were going to fix it, you just told him you'd
1065
1 take care of it, is that right?
2 A. Again, it would depend on the person.
3 I always assumed when I was dealing with people
4 that I was talking into a wire. That was always
5 my own practice when I practiced. When I would
6 talk to what I would call a stranger, somebody
7 that was not let's say a Marco or a Larry or a
8 Richie or Johnny or Patty or somebody that I was
9 in business with consistently, I would be very
10 careful how I would say things. I would quite
11 often indicate to a person coming in -- even when
12 a bookmaker would come in, a lot of times I never
13 told them what I was going to do. Marco would
14 send the people to me. They would come in. A
15 lot of times I wouldn't even have them come in.
16 A lot of times I would say I'll meet you in
17 court. I'll handle it. They a lot of times
18 would want you to say the magic words.
19 I would just say I will do what I can
20 do. I am pretty sure you'll be okay or I am
21 pretty sure there won't be a problem. It was not
22 that often that I would talk to a stranger and
23 tell them that I was going to fix something. I
24 would not use those words.
1066
1 Q. Who did you tell that you had fixed
2 the Harry Aleman case?
3 A. I didn't tell anybody other than the
4 people I was dealing with.
5 Q. Which would have been Pat Marcy?
6 A. Well, Pat Marcy wanted it done. I
7 mean, so, I just -- I never said to Pat, the case
8 is fixed. I said it will be taken care of and
9 the right thing will happen. I never discussed
10 that with -- well, Johnny D'Arco. I told my
11 partner obviously. At the time I was partners
12 with Johnny D'Arco. I discussed it with Pat
13 DeLeo I am sure because they were with me and
14 they were part of our group, but I did not
15 tell -- I did not tell any of my other friends
16 obviously that I was doing this.
17 Q. And you didn't tell them afterwards
18 that you had done it?
19 A. Well, not until I came forward and
20 started working with the federal authorities.
21 Q. Up until March of 1980 -- let me go
22 back. The Aleman case was fixed when?
23 A. I believe it was in '77, I believe.
24 Q. Between '77 and 1986, you did not tell
1067
1 any of your friends that you had fixed the case?
2 A. I can't think of anybody I did tell or
3 I would want to tell. That was not something I
4 would ever discuss with strangers. When I say
5 strangers, I mean somebody who wasn't part of our
6 world. I just didn't -- I had my own friends. I
7 had a lot of good friends and legitimate friends
8 that I dealt with. I would never discuss
9 anything like that with them.
10 Q. Did you tell your non-legitimate
11 friends, aside from the people you just
12 mentioned, that you had fixed the Harry Aleman
13 case?
14 A. I didn't tell, but I was aware a lot
15 of them knew it. A lot of them found out, but
16 not from me. I am talking about the organized
17 crime people. A lot of them. Well, see, when I
18 fixed the case, Marco was involved in the fixing
19 of the case. When I met with Harry, the first
20 time I met Harry to discuss the fact that I was
21 taking care of everything, Marco arranged the
22 meeting. Marco was the one who arranged to meet
23 in a hotel over there up in the northwest
24 suburbs, and so who all Marco told I don't know,
1068
1 but obviously Marco knew about it. He was
2 inter-involved in it.
3 Q. Let's go to Counselor's Row. There
4 was a table which has now been described as the
5 First Ward table, and when you would be there,
6 who would sit at that table?
7 A. Freddie Roti was there every day for
8 breakfast, he was there for lunch, he would be
9 there on again, off again.
10 When I first began with this
11 particular group, Pat Marcy would be there
12 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday
13 initially. He would be there four days a week,
14 but Pat would never usually come in until about
15 11:30, twelve o'clock. Freddie would usually be
16 gone about 4:00, 4:30, 5:00. Freddie would no
17 longer be there. Pat would be there. You'd
18 have -- I mean, a lot of elected officials, a
19 lot of mob guys would come there, some other
20 lawyers, a few other lawyers that were
21 inter-involved with these people and sometimes
22 Freddie would have a lot of other alderman, the
23 city clerk, the city clerk would be there.
24 Basically political people and inter-connected
1069
1 people. As I say, a lot of union, different
2 union officials from all around the county would
3 be coming back and forth to the table.
4 Q. Let me try and break this down a bit
5 if I might. Counselor's Row was located on what
6 street?
7 A. On LaSalle Street.
8 Q. And it was directly west of the City
9 Hall/County Building at that time, was it not?
10 A. That's correct, directly across the
11 street.
12 Q. And that's where all of the county
13 offices were, all of the city offices were and
14 some of the courts were there or they were just
15 in the building that was a block away?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. I don't think the Daley Center had
18 been built at that time, had it?
19 A. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't called the
20 Daley Center initially. Initially -- in fact, a
21 lot of cases were in that court, criminal and
22 civil, but it wasn't called the Daley Center. It
23 was called something else before that, but it was
24 there.
1070
1 Q. So all of the workings of the city and
2 county were in the building that was just across
3 the street to the east of Counselor's Row?
4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 Q. And there -- at the First Ward table
6 as I understand it while you would be there,
7 there would be just numbers of people coming up
8 and going, politicians, is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Judges?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. City officials?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. County officials?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Labor union officials?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. People you have identified as
19 organized crime people?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And at any given time when you would
22 be there at the table, how many persons would be
23 seated or near the table who would be described
24 as what we have just gone through?
1071
1 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. Wait a minute.
2 That seems too broad a question.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, the question is
4 at any given time how many of these either
5 politicals, OC or public officials?
6 MR. BOSTWICK: So is he going to break that
7 down into groups?
8 MR. CARMELL: No, I am not asking groups. I
9 am just asking how many people could be at a
10 table at a given time or standing at the table.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The description was
12 there are no really strangers hanging around
13 there. They had to fall into this group.
14 THE WITNESS: If you weren't invited, if you
15 weren't part of either the inter-circle or were
16 there for some specific reason for a short period
17 of time, it was -- as I say, it was like
18 Freddie's table early in the morning. Freddie
19 would have breakfast for as long as I knew him
20 almost every day there. He would be there at
21 like eight o'clock. A lot of different alderman
22 would be there at that particular time and you
23 would have -- like the city clerk was quite often
24 there. Stanley was there a lot and would be
1072
1 there. He would have a few of his people with
2 him. There would be other people inter-connected
3 with the alderman.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stanley?
5 BY MR. CARMELL:
6 Q. Kusper?
7 A. Kusper. For a long time Stanley would
8 be there. Stanley would be there in the morning
9 sometimes with Freddie's group.
10 Then when Marcy would come in, it like
11 became -- it was like Marcy's table and so
12 Freddie would be fine and with his people until
13 about noon. When Pat would come in, if there
14 were no open chairs, the people would have to get
15 up and Pat usually had the same seat. Pat
16 usually sat where he could face what was coming
17 in. He liked to sit in the corner either against
18 the one wall or the wall to the left of him where
19 he could see everything coming and going around
20 him.
21 When Pat was there, there was rarely
22 an open chair from noon until about maybe two,
23 three o'clock. Then Pat would quite often go
24 upstairs to the ward office and do whatever he
1073
1 does. Then sometimes the table would -- there
2 would be nobody there. I would be there by
3 myself with my friends sometimes during that
4 period.
5 Q. So the First Ward office was upstairs
6 of Counselor's Row?
7 A. That was upstairs, yes, sir.
8 Q. And weren't there numbers of people
9 who would come by just to say hello, how are you,
10 Pat, how is it going?
11 A. Oh, all of the time, all of the time.
12 Q. Who didn't have anything more to say
13 than that?
14 A. I mean every day. I mean, we are
15 talking about hundreds of people probably in a
16 given day would walk by and just say hi and Pat
17 would just say hi and they would go about their
18 business.
19 Q. Now, you testified that legitimate, as
20 you put it, First Ward business was discussed at
21 the table. What would you describe as legitimate
22 First Ward business?
23 A. Well, non-fixing of cases.
24 Q. Sir, don't give me the negatives. Try
1074
1 and give me the positives.
2 A. Again, there were a series of alderman
3 down there a lot where they would be discussing
4 different political things that were going on,
5 they would be discussing parties or events or a
6 lot of things. Sometimes people from the ward
7 might come and sit and talk to the alderman there
8 about different problems or different things.
9 There were a whole series of legitimate things
10 that would take place in the every day -- in the
11 every day comings and goings.
12 Q. When you wanted to speak to Pat Marcy
13 about as you put it dirty things, you would go
14 out, you would do one of two things, you would go
15 out into the hall or go to the booth near the
16 register, is that right?
17 A. Well, I would walk in, a lot of times
18 it would be arranged. Pat would leave a message
19 for me or tell me to come. As I would see him,
20 when I would walk up, as soon as he would see me
21 we would make contact and I knew what to do. He
22 would make contact or I would, I would walk out
23 into the hall and he would come walking out right
24 behind me. Other times I would come in there not
1075
1 knowing something had to be done and when I would
2 walk in, as soon as Pat would see me he would
3 just motion me and he would go as a rule out into
4 the hall, but sometimes like when it was real
5 crowded, a lot of people were out there, he would
6 walk to the back of the room or on a given
7 occasion walk over to a booth alongside the cash
8 register, a short distance from the table.
9 Q. You gave in testimony instances with a
10 person you identified as Bruno Caruso having gone
11 out into the hall with Pat Marcy --
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. -- on a couple of occasions?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And how many people on a given day
16 would go out into the hall with Pat Marcy while
17 you were there?
18 A. Some days nobody, other days one,
19 maybe two people, sometimes maybe even more
20 depending. I mean, Judge Scotillo would come
21 there a lot because Tony ran things over for him
22 over in the Civic Center. It used to be called
23 the Civic Center before the Daley Center. He
24 used to come over there and a lot of times he
1076
1 would come over there two, three times a day when
2 they were doing different deeds of theirs. Other
3 people too would come sometimes once, twice a
4 week, people like myself.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is this you are
6 talking about might come over two, three times?
7 THE WITNESS: Tony Scotillo when he was over
8 there. He was the one who did a lot of the
9 illegal things for Pat with the other judges in
10 particular.
11 BY MR. CARMELL:
12 Q. When you saw the person identified as
13 Bruno Caruso, were there other people in and
14 around the First Ward table when he came in?
15 A. There were always people around the
16 table. I mean, when I say always, I can't think
17 of many times when there weren't a lot of people,
18 a lot of people there.
19 Q. Did you know at the time you saw Bruno
20 Caruso whether he held any position with any
21 union?
22 A. When I first met them and saw them,
23 no, I didn't know. When I very first saw certain
24 people, I didn't. I gained knowledge after a
1077
1 while that they had some position. What exactly
2 it was, I didn't know. I didn't know what any of
3 them did.
4 Q. And that carried through to your
5 testimony that you knew about Bruno Caruso in
6 Counselor's Row?
7 A. That's correct, even up until the time
8 I came to work for the government I never knew
9 what these people did or didn't do. I never
10 asked.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, if you're at
12 a spot, you may want a physiological break here.
13 MR. CARMELL: I think this is a good time
14 for it, if I might.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Take a
16 10-minute break.
17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. Putting an end to the Counselor's Row
20 and people who would go out in the hall with Pat
21 Marcy, let me get the categories, there would be
22 judges, is that correct?
23 A. Well, there were a few judges I saw
24 him dealing with, yes, sir.
1078
1 Q. Some politicians?
2 A. There were, yes, sir, there were a few
3 politicians I would see him go outside with.
4 Q. Some attorneys?
5 A. A few attorneys, yes, sir.
6 Q. And some people who you didn't know
7 who they were?
8 A. Well, I mean, you know, some I -- some
9 others that I knew and some I didn't know, yes,
10 sir. There were some people I didn't know.
11 Q. Now, let's talk about the Rosewood
12 Restaurant. Where was it located?
13 A. You mean the Redwood, you mean?
14 Q. Redwood. I'm sorry.
15 A. It was on, I believe around 31st
16 Street and it was right around, I think,
17 Wallace. It was right there in the center of the
18 activity.
19 Q. Was it in the middle of the block?
20 A. No, it was on the corner.
21 Q. And so it was on the corner of Wallace
22 and 31st?
23 A. I'm indicating it was 31st or 32nd,
24 either 31st or 32nd. I think 31st was the busy
1079
1 street. It was not on a busy street, east-west
2 street. It might have been 32nd. And I believe
3 it was like Wallace or one of those streets right
4 there. It was on the southwest corner.
5 Q. And when did you first begin
6 frequenting Rosewood?
7 A. The Redwood.
8 Q. Redwood.
9 A. Redwood.
10 Q. Let me write this down.
11 A. Oh, I started probably 20 years ago, I
12 started going there, I went there for probably
13 about 8, 9, 10 years, starting about '7 -- in the
14 late '70s, early '80s.
15 Q. And when did you stop going to the
16 Redwood?
17 A. When I left town. I wore a wire in
18 there on a few occasions, not with Nicky. Nicky
19 was a straight -- Nicky wasn't organized crime.
20 He wasn't involved with those people, but it was
21 his bar, he owned the bar. But I wore a wire in
22 there when I talked to Dirge and a couple other
23 occasions I wore a wire in there when I was
24 dealing with some of the organized crime people
1080
1 in the neighborhood.
2 Q. And where would the barbecue be held?
3 A. He'd sometimes barbecue right out in
4 front. He had a grill he'd put out in front.
5 Q. Out front where?
6 A. On, I believe it would have been 32nd
7 Street, right there on the sidewalk.
8 Q. And were there tables outside?
9 A. He would have, like, like a little
10 stool, there would be like stools over there
11 along side the wall of the restaurant and I
12 imagine there were tables we put out there. The
13 food would then be put on the tables, and so
14 forth.
15 Q. Well, when you were out there at the
16 barbecue, where would you be standing or seated?
17 A. Just standing around there. There was
18 an area of sidewalk that was right there along
19 side the restaurant.
20 Q. And it ran along 32nd Street?
21 A. I believe it was 32nd Street there.
22 Q. Well, one of the number streets, 31st,
23 32nd Street, would that be fair?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1081
1 Q. Which side of 32nd Street -- let me
2 call it 32nd Street with the understanding we may
3 be off one or two. Which side of 32nd Street was
4 the restaurant located?
5 A. On the south side.
6 Q. And which way did the traffic go that
7 would pass by the restaurant closest to --
8 A. Both streets were two-way streets. He
9 had the restaurant -- it was more a bar, it
10 wasn't a restaurant, it was basically a bar.
11 They may have had sandwiches and stuff there.
12 And when I say he had a barbecue, that was just
13 his own thing. He sometimes for the, you know,
14 for his customers, he would have a barbecue out
15 in front and would just barbecue something. But
16 it was mainly just a bar where people went and
17 drank.
18 But it sat right in the corner, so on
19 the one side, you had, I believe, that was
20 Wallace, and I'm saying I think it was Wallace,
21 one of the streets that was pretty active with
22 traffic going up and down, and on 32nd Street,
23 and I think, again, it was 32nd, you had traffic
24 going east and west.
1082
1 Q. And the barbecue would be held on the
2 32nd Street side of the restaurant?
3 A. Well, when I say barbecue, he would be
4 barbecuing stuff out there. As I remember, any
5 time he did it, he usually did it right there
6 because there was a lot of room right there
7 alongside the restaurant.
8 Q. And a person who would be at the
9 barbecue would be on the 32nd Street side of the
10 restaurant, is that correct?
11 A. Well, we'd be standing on both sides.
12 I mean, you'd walk around the front, people would
13 be walking around on the one street or walking on
14 the other street. We'd be milling around there.
15 Q. So the customers, let me call them
16 customers, including you, would be milling around
17 on 32nd Street or on the Wallace side, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And there would be foot traffic, is
21 that correct?
22 A. Not a lot of foot traffic around
23 there, no, there was not -- there was never a lot
24 of foot traffic around there other than people
1083
1 coming to the bar.
2 Q. And as far as automobile traffic, it
3 was a well trafficked area, is that correct?
4 A. There would be activity up and down
5 both the streets.
6 Q. And for what years did Nicky run or
7 serve this barbecue?
8 A. I mean, as long as I knew him. I
9 mean, he would on a given occasion do it, like
10 for the 4th of July, periods like that.
11 Sometimes he would just do it.
12 Q. Now, the barbecue obviously was held
13 when there was warm weather, is that correct?
14 A. I don't remember if we had it during
15 the cold weather or not. We may have on a given
16 occasion on the spur of the moment done
17 something, but usually it would be when the
18 weather was nice.
19 Q. Now, you identified having seen Angelo
20 LaPietra driving through the neighborhood. Do
21 you remember that?
22 A. On different occasions we would see
23 him drive through, yes, sir.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. LaPietra's
1084
1 automobile?
2 A. He would be -- he usually had the same
3 car, as I remember, for a period of time, he had
4 the same car. Other times he would be in
5 different cars with different people.
6 Q. And where did Mr. LaPietra sit in the
7 car?
8 A. He would usually be in the passenger's
9 side. Somebody else was usually driving.
10 Q. The windows wouldn't be rolled down,
11 would they?
12 A. Sometimes in the summertime. I mean,
13 the windows would be open on occasion.
14 Q. I want you to use all of the
15 experience you've had in all of these years and
16 all this testimony. According to your
17 testimony -- and LaPietra is the boss of the 26th
18 Street area, is that right?
19 A. He was, I believe he was more than
20 that for some period, just --
21 Q. Even higher up than that?
22 A. He seemed to be, yes, sir.
23 Q. And Angelo LaPietra is driving through
24 the neighborhood sitting in the front seat with
1085
1 the window down on the passenger's side?
2 A. Oh, there were occasions. That was
3 his neighborhood. That was his territory.
4 Q. I see.
5 A. I'm trying to remember, but as I
6 remember, the windows, they may have been up,
7 they may have been down, but I don't think it was
8 a very secure situation when he would go through.
9 Q. Mr. LaPietra was in the passenger side
10 of the car, is that correct?
11 A. He usually had -- I didn't usually see
12 him driving. Somebody else would normally be
13 driving.
14 Q. And he'd be in the passenger side of
15 the car?
16 A. Usually, yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. And that would -- the
18 passenger side of the car was the side that was
19 closest to your line of vision?
20 A. On occasion. It would depend if they
21 came down 31st or 32nd or if they went down
22 Wallace, but if he was on Wallace, he would not
23 be closest to me. The driver would be closest to
24 me. The other people might be there, you know.
1086
1 Q. So if they came down Wallace, for you
2 to identify Mr. LaPietra, you would have had to
3 look across the lanes of traffic through the
4 driver of the car and then see Mr. LaPietra in
5 the passenger side, isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And were there other people -- I know
8 that you said that you saw the person you
9 identified as Bruno Caruso in the car with
10 Mr. LaPietra. Where was he sitting?
11 A. In the back seat. He'd be in the back
12 seat. Again, I saw them on more than one
13 occasion. So, I mean, on which particular
14 occasion? Usually there would be -- a lot of
15 times, again, I probably saw Angelo maybe a
16 couple dozen or more times over a long period,
17 before he went to the penitentiary. He was gone,
18 I believe, when I left town. But before that, I
19 mean, a lot of times you would see him. It was
20 not an infrequent situation.
21 Q. When, as you testified, you recall
22 seeing the person Bruno Caruso in the automobile
23 with Angelo LaPietra, where was Mr. Caruso
24 sitting?
1087
1 A. He would have been in the back seat,
2 as I remember.
3 Q. On the driver's side of the back seat
4 or the passenger's side of the back seat?
5 A. I really can't be specific. I really
6 don't know. I don't remember.
7 Q. Were there occasions when you saw the
8 automobile with Mr. LaPietra that had three
9 people in the back seat?
10 A. I don't think so. Usually it would be
11 a couple people. Usually it would be a couple
12 people. And quite often it was just him and the
13 driver. Quite often it would be just him and the
14 driver going wherever they went.
15 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Cooley, that you
16 didn't observe this, somebody told you that a
17 person in the car was Angelo LaPietra?
18 A. No, sir. I've never discussed that
19 with anybody else.
20 Q. You didn't know Angelo LaPietra
21 personally, did you?
22 A. I knew who he was. I knew him to see
23 him, but I never spoke to him other than to say
24 hello, other than to say hi.
1088
1 Q. Again, I want to know how did you know
2 it was Angelo LaPietra's automobile?
3 A. Because the people I was with, I'd be
4 there with Dirge, I'd be there with Frank, I'd be
5 there with Larry or somebody else, I mean, these
6 people all knew him.
7 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who?
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
10 THE WITNESS: Dirge's brother, Frank
11 Imperato.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And these people would say, and I'm
14 just coining a phrase, there goes Angie in his
15 car or there goes Angelo or Hook's car?
16 A. Well, I mean, they never talked about
17 him with any kind of disrespect, those people.
18 They would wave sometimes, he would wave back
19 sometimes. Sometimes they would just go by and
20 we -- I might make some comments about it. I
21 would make silly comments about the entourage or
22 I wonder about who is in trouble today or things
23 like that, but these people would never joke
24 about that.
1089
1 Q. And the car that you say Mr. LaPietra
2 was in would drive by the Redwood, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Going through the neighborhood, yes,
5 sir.
6 Q. I want to talk about the
7 Italian-American Club. When did you become a
8 member of the club?
9 A. It was probably around 19 -- about
10 1980, somewhere around there, '80, '81.
11 Q. And how long did you remain a member?
12 A. I paid dues one time and never paid a
13 second time. I paid dues one time and I got
14 stuck with some tickets, a lot during that
15 period, every time they had one of their
16 so-called benefits, I was stuck with a whole
17 bunch of tickets and I wound up eating them, I
18 wound up buying all of them, so I was there for,
19 I'd say, for one season, one year, whatever it
20 might be, but I never paid a second time.
21 Q. And the tickets that you purchased,
22 how many -- what was the dollar value of those?
23 What did you have to pay?
24 A. $100, $150. They would just give me a
1090
1 certain amount of tickets and just say -- you
2 know, and they expected you to sell them. You
3 were expected to sell them. I mean, everybody
4 would be selling these things, so there was no
5 way you were going to sell them. I wound up just
6 giving them the money.
7 Q. Where was the Italian-American Social
8 Club located when you were a member?
9 A. The first time when I went, I believe
10 they had actually two places, there was one place
11 a little bit south, a little bit south of where
12 the Redwood was, on one of the north-south
13 streets, but then they also had, the main place
14 was over on 26th Street.
15 Q. Did the main place come in after the
16 little one was closed?
17 A. I remember being at both of those.
18 And, again, I can't specifically say whether they
19 were both open at the same time. But initially I
20 believe I went to a club that was a little bit
21 south of where the Redwood was. And I tried to
22 think of this when I talked to him a couple weeks
23 ago and it just doesn't register what the exact
24 street was. But I remember then going to a place
1091
1 on 26th Street because I remember, again, the
2 first time I walked in there I was wearing a suit
3 and a tie and I came in in the daytime and there
4 was also somebody there at the door that was not
5 very friendly to me, apparently didn't know me or
6 recognize me in a suit and tie and a hat, and was
7 kind of crude until somebody said, oh, that's
8 Bobby, that's Bobby, let him in, and I walked in
9 then.
10 Q. Do you know the year that the July 4th
11 party occurred that you have testified to?
12 A. No, sir, I don't know. I believe
13 there were a couple of them. I know there
14 was -- I know there was one. For some reason,
15 I'm thinking there was a couple. There was a
16 couple of those 4th of July parties. I remember
17 being at one in particular.
18 Q. If I told you that the
19 Italian-American Club had approximately 800
20 members, would that surprise you?
21 A. No.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: This is currently?
23 MR. CARMELL: Had.
24 BY MR. CARMELL:
1092
1 Q. At the time that you were --
2 A. No, that wouldn't surprise me. I had
3 no idea how many people were paying.
4 Q. And on the July 4th party, at least
5 the one that you testified to, it was a very
6 large street party, as you referred to it, a huge
7 street party, isn't it?
8 A. Oh, that's correct. There were a
9 lot -- we all had to sell tickets for that. We
10 all had X amount of tickets to sell. It wasn't a
11 freebee event, and there were, I mean, you're
12 talking about a lot of people.
13 Q. There were families there, women,
14 children, et cetera, weren't there not?
15 A. Yes, sir, there were.
16 Q. And you referred to the club as Angelo
17 LaPietra's club. Do you remember that?
18 A. He was the main boss of the area. It
19 was his territory.
20 Q. Did you know that Angelo LaPietra had
21 founded the Italian American Club?
22 A. That certainly wouldn't surprise me.
23 That would not surprise me at all.
24 Q. And during the time that this huge
1093
1 street party was going on, you went over to say
2 hello to Angelo LaPietra?
3 A. I said hello certainly when I came
4 in.
5 Q. Did you see women and children going
6 over there to say hello to Angelo LaPietra?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. In fact, lots and lots and lots of
9 people went over to say hello to Angelo LaPietra,
10 is that correct?
11 A. Just about everyone that came in, yes,
12 sir.
13 Q. All right. Coming to the end.
14 When you decided to go to the FBI, you
15 had gambling debts of over $200,000, is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes, sir, I did.
18 Q. And the government gave you
19 approximately $72,000 to pay down the gambling
20 debt, is that correct?
21 A. Well, the government insisted on doing
22 that. I didn't have to pay the gambling debts at
23 all. That was their idea. I was told not to pay
24 the people.
1094
1 Q. You felt that you could just keep that
2 gambling debt out there of $200,000?
3 A. No. I had gone -- before I came to
4 the FBI, before I came in, I went to see Johnny
5 DiFronzo who at that time was probably one of the
6 acting bosses in the Chicago area. I went to see
7 him and he took care of it for me. He contacted
8 the people and told them I would pay them when I
9 was ready to pay them.
10 I went to see him again after I came
11 to the FBI and I told him -- I wore a wire when I
12 saw him the next time because they didn't believe
13 that I could go see him to get this thing taken
14 care of, so I went and talked to him on tape
15 where he again indicated to me that I told you
16 not to pay one person in particular. Why do you
17 want to pay him? I didn't have to pay those
18 people if I didn't want to.
19 Q. According to the questions from
20 Mr. Bostwick, you decided to go and cooperate
21 with the government because you wanted to put an
22 end to -- because you thought it was the right
23 thing to do, is that right?
24 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
1095
1 Q. You had once broken away from these
2 organized crime people when you went out to
3 Senator Lemke's office, isn't that correct?
4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 Q. That didn't last very long, did it?
6 A. Oh, it lasted for a long time.
7 Q. About a year, six months to a year if
8 I remember your testimony?
9 A. It lasted for quite a while until Pat
10 Marcy got in touch with me and told me I had to
11 fix the Collela case and I just didn't want to do
12 that, but I did do it.
13 Q. Let me try and fix the time frame.
14 What was the period of time in which you would
15 say you were not involved with organized crime?
16 A. Well, when I say I am not --
17 Q. Other than representing people who
18 might be in a gambling case?
19 A. I still got some -- even though I
20 didn't get Marco's business for a while, I still
21 began -- I still was getting some business from
22 other areas, from other people that there is no
23 question they were involved in organized crime,
24 but these were like personal friends of mine that
1096
1 would send me the business on their own, but
2 there was a period of probably a couple of years.
3 Q. Let me ask you about involved with
4 organized crime. It is something I don't quite
5 understand. You testified that a person who was
6 a bookmaker paid a street tax, is that correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now, the person who was a bookmaker,
9 was that person automatically involved in
10 organized crime just by being a bookmaker?
11 A. No. It depended on his relationship
12 with the people. There were different ways that
13 you paid. Sometimes you just paid a street tax
14 and sometimes you were partners with them. I
15 mean, Marco explained all of this on our
16 recordings.
17 Q. Let's try again. There were
18 bookmakers who in order to operate their own
19 bookmaking operation paid a street tax?
20 A. Yes, there were a series of those,
21 yes, sir.
22 Q. Did you call those persons being
23 involved in organized crime?
24 A. No. I mean, that alone in itself, no,
1097
1 would not be -- in my opinion would not have them
2 involved with organized crime in the way that I
3 used the term.
4 Q. So that merely by being in gambling,
5 the person would not necessarily be involved in
6 organized crime?
7 A. Not unless they are involved in
8 gambling and also involved in juice loans and
9 also involved in the burglaries and the robberies
10 and the rest of it, no, sir. That itself alone
11 would not be a reason for me to consider somebody
12 involved in organized crime.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject a comment
14 here which is that he may be testifying as to his
15 understanding. We also have legal definitions
16 which apply to our process, and I am just doing
17 exactly what Sherman did.
18 MR. CARMELL: I don't know why that has to
19 come in.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whatever he knows or
21 thinks he thinks.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fine. This is his
23 opinion and he is testifying to it.
24 MR. CARMELL: It was put in obviously
1098
1 because he has used the phrase involved. I am
2 just asking him how he is using that phrase.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think the question
4 is legitimate because they are talking about
5 gambling and how the gamblers are involved and
6 who pays the street tax. It moves up the line,
7 becomes part of it.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me clarify. I was not
9 objecting to the line of questioning or the
10 response or anything of the sort. I am just
11 interjecting that there are two different
12 situations going on here. There is his opinion
13 and there is also legal definitions and standard
14 in the process.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: We know there are
16 ultimate definitions that float around here
17 called associates which we are always wrestling
18 with and then all of the witnesses talk about he
19 is involved, he is with them and so forth and it
20 is a very legitimate line of questioning.
21 MR. CARMELL: Having only been partially
22 confused by that, give me a moment.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought my
24 explanation was very clear.
1099
1 MR. CARMELL: Your explanation is clear.
2 Where I am is what is confused.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, you are right
4 at the point where you have just asked him simply
5 paying the tax doesn't make you a part of OC.
6 MR. CARMELL: I think it was something
7 else. I know what the simply is.
8 And on that high note, I have no
9 further questions.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I have a short redirect. I
11 don't think we need to break now unless
12 anybody --
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go right ahead.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Mr. Cooley, in response to
17 Mr. Carmell's questioning, you mentioned an
18 incident where you disassociated with Marco
19 D'Amico as a result of a death threat. Do you
20 recall that testimony?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you recall the time period of that
23 disassociation?
24 A. Well, again, it was during the Frank
1100
1 Renella case. They had just killed somebody who
2 had wore a wire against them and Frank Renella
3 was prosecuted for that case along with Donny
4 Scaliese and Nick Boulahanis, so it was -- it
5 happened when they -- when I was on trial with
6 Frank Renella. I am not sure what the exact year
7 was, but that was the exact date.
8 Q. Did you ultimately reestablish contact
9 with Marco D'Amico?
10 A. Well, after about six months to a
11 year, I would see him on occasion at certain
12 places and it wasn't until I came to work for the
13 government that I reestablished my -- then I did
14 go out and reestablish my relationship with him
15 and I was kind of surprised they would deal with
16 me as freely as they did after having not been
17 with them for a period of time especially under
18 the circumstances that I left them.
19 Q. And you were asked also about a -- to
20 clarify some of your understandings about this
21 dice game on the 26th Street area. Do you recall
22 that testimony?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. You testified that there were four or
1101
1 five people that you would see I believe it was
2 Frank Caruso hanging around with during that dice
3 game. Do you recall the names of any of those
4 individuals?
5 A. Well, Richie would be there on
6 occasion, Larry --
7 Q. Richie Catazone?
8 A. Larry would be there every time.
9 Larry made it clear that he ran the game for
10 these people and that he was in charge.
11 Q. Larry Pusiteri told you that?
12 A. Yes, sir. On many occasions, yes,
13 sir.
14 Q. Did you ever see -- well, strike
15 that.
16 Mr. Carmell also asked you a series of
17 questions about Counselor's Row and it is true
18 that there were a lot of legitimate people in
19 that restaurant discussing -- or having
20 legitimate conversations, having nothing to do
21 with organized crime, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
23 Q. And lots of those individuals said hi
24 or spoke either at length or briefly with Pat
1102
1 Marcy, is that correct?
2 A. Well, at the table, yes, sir.
3 Q. In fact, hundreds of people, hundreds
4 of those conversations I believe you testified
5 occurred every day?
6 A. I mean, maybe hundreds is
7 exaggerating, but there were a lot. It was a
8 constant -- there were people especially during
9 the lunch hour. I mean, a lot of people would
10 come by and say hi and just reach over or
11 whatever and others that were sitting there. I
12 mean, most every day there was some business
13 going on there at the table.
14 Q. You have used the phrase dirty
15 conversations or dirty discussions. Did you use
16 that phrase at the time?
17 A. I don't understand the question.
18 Q. In other words, dirty conversations to
19 indicate conversations relating to organized
20 crime or fixing cases or the like?
21 A. Anything illegal. If we were going to
22 discuss anything illegal or anything we wouldn't
23 want picked up on tape, anything we wouldn't want
24 to be overheard, we would not talk at the table.
1103
1 Q. Did you clearly understand from
2 discussions with Pat Marcy, John D'Arco, Senior,
3 Judge Costillo --
4 A. Scotillo.
5 Q. -- Scotillo and others that there was
6 a procedure for discussing this illegal business?
7 A. Oh, absolutely. That's just the way
8 it always was.
9 Q. And of those types of conversations,
10 conversations that were conducted in a certain
11 manner where Pat Marcy got up away from the
12 table, went to the hall, et cetera, in a private
13 conversation, you testified that there were only
14 a few of those conversations, either zero, one,
15 two, or three or so during a given day, is that
16 correct?
17 A. That's correct, yes, sir. I mean,
18 some days none, but it was a regular experience.
19 It was not at all unusual.
20 Q. And it was those types of
21 conversations conducted in that type of way that
22 you indicated that you saw Bruno Caruso and Leo
23 Caruso involved with Pat Marcy, is that correct?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1104
1 Q. You testified also in response to
2 Mr. Carmell's questions that you didn't know
3 specifically what Bruno Caruso, for example, did
4 specifically for organized crime, is that
5 correct?
6 A. I still don't. I still don't know to
7 this day.
8 MR. CARMELL: I don't think that was the
9 question. I asked what he did with the union.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, I am sorry.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think he asked him
12 do you know what he did with the union or if he
13 was with the union and I don't think he knew
14 either.
15 BY THE WITNESS:
16 A. I still don't know what they do with
17 the union.
18 MR. CARMELL: That was his answer then.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. Did you have a clear understanding
21 that Bruno Caruso was associated with the 26th
22 Street Crew?
23 A. I was aware of this for a long period
24 of time, yes, sir.
1105
1 Q. Is this understanding based in part on
2 your viewing of Bruno Caruso riding with Angelo
3 LaPietra?
4 A. It was based upon, you know, upon
5 everything I saw, everything I did, the people I
6 talked to.
7 Q. Over a course of years?
8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's all of the questions
10 that I have.
11 MR. CARMELL: Nothing.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: If we can take maybe a
14 15-minute break or so and then put on the next
15 witness or do we want to --
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sure. We will put the
17 next witness on and --
18 MR. CARMELL: Who is our next witness?
19 MR. BOSTWICK: Our next witness is Guy
20 Bills, Charles Francis Bills known as Guy Bills.
21 MR. CARMELL: Do you have -- are there any
22 documents that were part of our exhibits that
23 referred to Guy Bills?
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, and at the break why
1106
1 don't we discuss those.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Sir, thank you
3 very much, and we are done with you and you are
4 free.
5 (Witness excused.)
6 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
7 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Joseph E. Griffin
8 entered the arbitration
9 proceedings.)
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, we're back
11 on the record and I see you have brought a new
12 witness in and we'll have him sworn. I'm the
13 Independent Hearing Officer, sir.
14 Okay. Miss Reporter, would you
15 administer the oath.
16 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
17 sworn.)
18 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS,
19 called as a witness herein, having been first
20 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
24 Q. Good late morning, I guess it is.
1107
1 Sir, could you give us your given name.
2 A. Charles Francis Bills.
3 Q. Were you known by any other names?
4 A. Guy.
5 Q. What is your age?
6 A. 56.
7 Q. Is Guy Bills or Charles Francis Bills
8 the name you currently go by?
9 A. No, it's not.
10 Q. Why is that?
11 A. I was in the Witness Protection
12 Program and they changed it.
13 Q. Have you provided testimony in federal
14 criminal trials?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Approximately how many?
17 A. Twice.
18 Q. Who were the defendants in those
19 cases?
20 A. Albert Tocco and Frank Calabrese.
21 Q. So Albert Tocco and Clarence Crockett,
22 were they one trial?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Tell us a little bit about that case,
1108
1 the Al Tocco and Clarence Crockett indictment.
2 A. It was about paying, junk yards paying
3 taxes and myself collecting taxes in a stolen car
4 operation.
5 Q. When you say taxes, do you mean street
6 taxes?
7 A. Street taxes, yes, I do.
8 Q. Is this for organized crime in
9 Chicago?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. How about the Calabrese case you
12 referred to, was Mr. Calabrese -- well, in fact,
13 weren't there two Calabreses?
14 A. Yes, there was.
15 Q. Frank, Sr. and a Jr.?
16 A. Yes, but the only one I knew was
17 Frank, Sr.
18 Q. I see. Were there other defendants in
19 that trial as well?
20 A. There were numerous defendants.
21 Q. What was the general subject matter of
22 that trial?
23 A. About juice loans.
24 Q. Okay. Juice loans relating to
1109
1 organized crime?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Here in the City of Chicago?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Have you also provided information
6 regarding organized crime in the City of Chicago
7 to the FBI?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Have you agreed in the past to meet
10 with individuals associated with organized crime
11 to further FBI investigations?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. Have some of these meetings been tape
14 recorded?
15 A. Yes, they were.
16 Q. Mr. Bills, have you heard of the term
17 Chicago Outfit?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. How would you describe that term?
20 A. They run anything that's illegal in
21 Chicago.
22 Q. They meaning the Chicago Outfit?
23 A. The Chicago Outfit.
24 Q. What about the term crew or street
1110
1 crew?
2 A. There's different crews throughout the
3 city.
4 Q. What is the function of crews or
5 street crews?
6 A. They enforce anything that's illegal,
7 that anybody is in business, that they collect
8 the money or they put them out of business.
9 Q. Were you associated during a period of
10 time with either the Chicago Outfit or one of
11 these street crews?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. During what period of time? You can
14 give me an approximation.
15 A. '77 to the early '80s.
16 Q. And what crew was that?
17 A. With Angelo LaPietra and Albert Tocco.
18 Q. Angelo LaPietra, is that individual --
19 what crew is he a part of?
20 A. 26th Street Crew. He's the boss.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We are talking
22 about the same -- I know we're talking about the
23 same individual, even though they might have
24 different pronunciations. I always knew of him
1111
1 as Angelo LaPietra. How about you, Mr. Bills?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I just pronounce
3 it wrong.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. And Al Tocco that you mentioned -- I'm
7 sorry. Did you mention Al Tocco?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. What crew was he the head of?
10 A. Chicago Heights. He was the under
11 boss.
12 Q. Whose the boss of that crew?
13 A. Al Pilotto.
14 Q. Were you involved in juice loans in
15 any way?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Could you define the term juice
18 loans? What does that mean?
19 A. If you can't get a loan anywhere, then
20 you would go to a juice loan operator, who would
21 loan you $1,000 and you would pay back 10 percent
22 a week.
23 Q. Did the amounts that you paid back per
24 week vary at times?
1112
1 A. No, they don't. You're supposed to
2 pay 10 percent a week.
3 Q. What specifically did you do with
4 respect to juice loans?
5 A. I loaned the money on the street.
6 Q. For what organization?
7 A. Angelo LaPietra.
8 Q. Over what period of time?
9 A. For about a year and a half, I think.
10 I'm not sure on the time.
11 Q. Is this that same time period, late
12 '70s, early '80s?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever have any involvement in
15 juice loans with the other crew that you
16 mentioned, Al Tocco or Al Pilotto's crew?
17 A. No, sir, I didn't.
18 Q. Were you ever involved in the
19 collection or payment of street tax for the
20 Outfit?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Okay. Can you define for us briefly
23 what you understand the term street tax to mean?
24 A. Anybody who is doing anything illegal
1113
1 pays a tax to the Chicago Outfit.
2 Q. And what is the purpose of that tax?
3 A. So you don't get hurt or killed.
4 Q. Did you ever collect street tax?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. For who?
7 A. For Angelo LaPietra's crew and Albert
8 Tocco's crew.
9 Q. Is this during that same time period,
10 late '70s and early '80s?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Mr. -- well, who did you give that
13 money to?
14 A. Ronald Jarrett or Albert Tocco.
15 Q. Tell us about how a collection of
16 street tax works. What types of people did you
17 collect street tax from?
18 A. Car thieves, chop shop operators, and
19 gamblers.
20 Q. And you would collect, what, a set
21 amount during a set period of time?
22 A. Once a month.
23 Q. Approximately how much would you
24 collect? Did it depend on the business that they
1114
1 were doing, the criminal business?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Who set that amount?
4 A. Frank Calabrese.
5 Q. For the one crew?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And which crew was that?
8 A. Angelo LaPietra's crew.
9 Q. When you collected it, who did you
10 then give it to?
11 A. Ronald Jarrett.
12 Q. Who is Ronald Jarrett?
13 A. He works under Frankie Calabrese for
14 Angelo LaPietra.
15 Q. And that's during the same period of
16 time, the '70s and early '80s, late '70s and
17 early '80s?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Mr. Bills, you mentioned chop shop
20 operations. Were you ever involved in chop shop
21 operations?
22 A. Yes, sir, I was.
23 Q. Could you tell us what a chop shop
24 operation is?
1115
1 A. That's where you chop a car up for the
2 parts and resell it.
3 Q. What role did you play in chop shop
4 operations?
5 A. I had my own chop shop. I stold cars
6 for the chop shop and I had a junk yard at one
7 time.
8 Q. Approximately what time periods are
9 these events taking place?
10 A. In that same amount of time that I
11 gave you already.
12 Q. Did you pay a street tax to operate a
13 chop shop?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And who did you pay that street tax
16 to?
17 A. Ronald Jarrett and Frank Calabrese.
18 Q. Over what period of time did you do
19 that?
20 A. For about a year.
21 Q. Is that late '70s, early '80s?
22 A. That would be in the late '70s.
23 Q. Mr. Bills, have you ever been
24 convicted of a federal crime?
1116
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Were you convicted of interstate
3 shipment of stolen goods in the early '70s?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. Could you tell us briefly what that
6 related to?
7 A. From a trailer, we stold a trailer and
8 we sold the stuff.
9 Q. What type of stuff?
10 A. Radios and clothing.
11 Q. Did you commit burglaries over time?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. A number of them?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. With a number of different people?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was this
18 conviction for stolen goods?
19 THE WITNESS: Interstate theft.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was it?
21 THE WITNESS: Chicago. I went to trial in
22 the federal building.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who prosecuted you?
24 THE WITNESS: Geeze, I can't remember the
1117
1 guy's --
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I wasn't the
3 prosecutor on that case, was I?
4 THE WITNESS: No, you were not.
5 MR. CARMELL: Do you know what year it was?
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. Do you know the approximate year? He
8 said sometime in the early '70s, I believe.
9 A. '71, '72 maybe. The guy later went
10 on -- the guy who prosecuted me, later went on, I
11 believe, that union official that got killed.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: That would be Matt
13 Lyden prosecuted you?
14 THE WITNESS: No, Matt Lyden wasn't on the
15 case. I know who Matt Lyden is. This guy was
16 stocky.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: And prosecuted the
18 union official later?
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but away from here. The
20 union official they killed wasn't from here.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I prosecuted a lot of
22 ITSB cases during that time, the early '70s, and
23 I thought I or one of my men might have done
24 that, but I don't think so.
1118
1 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Were you also convicted of stolen --
4 taking stolen cars over state lines?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Approximately when was that?
7 A. The indictment was after I was in
8 jail.
9 Q. On that first matter?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. I see. So what happened to that case?
12 A. I was given, Judge Marovich give me, I
13 believe, four years to run concurrent with the
14 time that I already had.
15 Q. So you didn't go to trial on that
16 matter?
17 A. I pleaded guilty.
18 Q. And the last matter, were you
19 convicted of a RICO conviction in the mid to late
20 '80s?
21 A. Yes, I pled guilty on that.
22 Q. And what did that relate to, what type
23 of activity?
24 A. Selling stolen parts across the state
1119
1 line.
2 Q. Did it also relate to chop shop
3 activity?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Where did you grow up, Mr. Bills?
6 A. On the -- I lived on the south side
7 for a while, around 74th and Emerald, and I lived
8 in Bridgeport for about five or six years.
9 Q. Is this in the 26th Street area of
10 Chicago?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Who is your father?
13 A. Charles "Duckie" Bills. That was his
14 nickname, Duckie.
15 Q. Was your father involved in any
16 criminal activity?
17 A. Bookmaker.
18 Q. How do you know that?
19 A. I worked in his office.
20 Q. During what period of time -- when you
21 say his office, I take it you mean -- let me
22 strike that first question and say when you
23 worked in his office, I take it you mean his
24 bookmaking office?
1120
1 A. Yes, which would be called the wire
2 room.
3 Q. During what period of time did you
4 work in his bookmaking operation?
5 A. In the early '60s.
6 Q. Was this bookmaking involved with the
7 26th Street Crew in any way?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. What types of bets did your father
10 take?
11 A. He took bets on the horses and later
12 football.
13 Q. Did your father know people in
14 leadership positions of the Outfit?
15 A. Yes, he did.
16 Q. In the 26th Street Crew?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. Who were some of his closest
19 associates in those groups?
20 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to it. It
21 requires him to speculate who his father believed
22 were members.
23 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, let me ask you on --
24 MR. CARMELL: That's the way the question is
1121
1 written.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Did you have discussions with your
4 father about people in the Outfit?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Did you have discussions with your
7 father about people in the 26th Street crew?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Did you meet some of these people?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did you have discussions with them
12 specifically about their involvement?
13 A. Later on, I did.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't you
15 establish who he met and then we'll figure out
16 who they are.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Did you meet an individual named Gus
19 Alex?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And who is Gus Alex?
22 A. He was the boss of the Chicago Loop.
23 Q. How did you meet Mr. Alex?
24 A. Through my father.
1122
1 Q. Did you know a Sam Alex?
2 A. That was his brother.
3 Q. What position, if any, did Mr. Sam
4 Alex hold in the Chicago Outfit?
5 A. From what I heard, he was a killer and
6 a big boss.
7 Q. Who did you hear that from?
8 A. From my father and other people.
9 Q. Did he have any relationship or family
10 ties to your father?
11 A. He was married to my aunt.
12 Q. This is Sam Alex?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. So Sam Alex and Gus Alex were
15 relatives, in effect, of yours?
16 A. Sam Alex was. I don't think Gus was
17 because he married my aunt. I don't know if that
18 would be a relation or not.
19 Q. I guess it depends on how far one
20 extends the family tree.
21 Did you discuss these individuals, Gus
22 Alex and Sam Alex, and their position in the
23 Outfit with your father?
24 A. Yes, I did.
1123
1 Q. During what period of time?
2 A. Since I was about 13.
3 Q. Did they ever come to your home?
4 A. Yes, they have.
5 Q. Did you see them on other occasions?
6 A. Yes, sir, I have.
7 Q. In and around the neighborhood?
8 A. At wakes, weddings.
9 Q. Did you see people in the 26th Street
10 area interact with these people?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. How were they treated by -- Sam Alex
13 and Gus Alex, how were they treated in the 26th
14 Street area?
15 A. Very respectfully.
16 Q. Were you and your father treated any
17 differently because of a family relationship with
18 Gus and Sam Alex?
19 A. We were treated a little better than
20 the average person, yeah.
21 Q. Let me show you a couple of photos
22 here, and ask you to look. This binder,
23 Mr. Bills, is marked as Exhibit 6, and then there
24 are tabs in the exhibits. I'm going to ask you
1124
1 to look at 6-B and 6-D, if you would, please.
2 First of all, 6B, the person behind
3 the tab?
4 MR. CARMELL: Is that B as in boy?
5 MR. BOSTWICK: B as in boy, yeah.
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. You go behind Tab B. Who is that
8 individual?
9 A. Gus Alex.
10 Q. Go behind Tab D. Could you tell me
11 who that individual is?
12 A. Frank "Skid" Caruso.
13 Q. How do you know who Frank "Skids"
14 Caruso is?
15 A. I know him since I was a young kid.
16 Q. Did he have any relationship with your
17 father?
18 A. Yes, he did.
19 Q. What was the nature of that
20 relationship?
21 A. They were friends.
22 Q. Was -- did Frank Skids Caruso have any
23 involvement in your father's bookmaking
24 operation?
1125
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And what was the nature of that
3 involvement?
4 A. They had to call all of the bets in
5 Skid Caruso's office.
6 Q. Who did; your father?
7 A. Yes, they did.
8 Q. Why was that?
9 A. Because they were 50/50 partners.
10 Q. Can you describe in a little more
11 detail how that partnership between Frank Skids
12 Caruso and your father worked with respect to the
13 bookmaking and in the Chicago Chinatown area?
14 A. They would call in all of the bets
15 that they had during the day to Skids' office and
16 winnings or losing would be 50 percent either
17 way.
18 Q. Do you remember an individual named
19 Tony Bova?
20 A. Yes. He was working in Skids' office.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you spell that
22 name?
23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
24 Q. Do you know?
1126
1 A. B-o-v-a, I believe.
2 Q. What role did Mr. Bova play in Frank
3 Skids Caruso's office?
4 A. He ran the sports office for Skid.
5 Q. When you say office, again, you are
6 referring to the illegal bookmaking operation?
7 A. Right. Anybody who was booking in
8 that neighborhood would have to call their bets
9 into that office or they couldn't book.
10 Q. What would happen if they didn't?
11 What was your understanding?
12 A. They would get hurt or they would pay
13 the money.
14 Q. Did you see Frank Skids Caruso with
15 your father on occasion?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. A number of occasions?
18 A. A lot of times.
19 Q. Have you talked with -- to your father
20 about Frank Skids Caruso?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. With other individuals in the
23 neighborhood?
24 A. With other individuals in the
1127
1 neighborhood, no. He talked about Skid, but I
2 have heard it from other people.
3 Q. I am sorry. Have you talked about
4 Frank Skids Caruso with other people in the
5 neighborhood as well?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. What did you understand Frank Skids
8 Caruso's position in the 26th Street Crew to be?
9 A. He was a boss.
10 Q. And what period of time was this?
11 A. Until he died.
12 Q. Do you know approximately when that
13 was?
14 A. No, I don't know.
15 Q. But does this period cover the '60s
16 and '70s or at least a portion of those periods?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Look at 6A, picture
19 6A.
20 MR. BOSTWICK: 6A?
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. The very
22 beginning.
23 Do you see Gus Alex in there?
24 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
1128
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Let me show you -- have you take a
3 look at Exhibit 6M, behind the Tab 6M. Do you
4 recognize that individual?
5 A. Angelo LaPietra.
6 Q. Were you aware from discussions with
7 your father and others what his position in the
8 Outfit was?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And what position was that?
11 A. He was a boss. He became boss of the
12 whole 26th Street area to 31st Street.
13 Q. Approximately what time period?
14 A. Whenever he moved into the
15 neighborhood and built his house. I don't know
16 what time frame that is.
17 Q. Was there a period of time when
18 Mr. LaPietra was forced to leave the 26th Street
19 area?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Approximately when was that?
22 A. I can't -- when my father got shot.
23 Q. Can you tell us did Mr. LaPietra's
24 having to leave the neighborhood have something
1129
1 to do with your father's being shot?
2 A. Yes, it did.
3 Q. Can you tell us about what happened?
4 A. My father was shot through the door of
5 the house.
6 Q. How old were you?
7 A. Young. I am trying to think.
8 Q. Early teenage years or younger?
9 A. Maybe just a teenager.
10 Q. Did you witness the shooting?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Did you go to the hospital with your
13 family after the shooting?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. How soon following the shooting?
16 A. A couple of days, I believe. I am not
17 sure on the time frame.
18 Q. Did you see your father in the
19 hospital?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Did -- was anybody else present?
22 A. There was a lot of guys standing
23 around.
24 Q. Who was there?
1130
1 A. Jimmy Catura, my uncle.
2 Q. That would be Sam Alex?
3 A. No, no. My other uncle, Gurgone,
4 G-u-r-g-o-n-e. Sam I believe is his first name.
5 He had a nickname.
6 Q. Was -- do you recall whether Sam or
7 Gus Alex were in the room?
8 A. Gus Alex came there.
9 Q. Could you describe what was said as
10 you recall it?
11 A. There was another gentleman there who
12 I don't know, I can't remember his name, and one
13 of my uncles and they were wanting revenge for
14 what happened to my father, and Gus Alex says,
15 don't worry about it. I'll take care of
16 everything. Everybody better hope this Irishman
17 lives.
18 Q. Did you become aware through
19 subsequent -- well, did you become aware that
20 Mr. LaPietra left the neighborhood after that
21 period of time?
22 A. Yes. Years later.
23 Q. Years later he left?
24 A. I found out years afterwards.
1131
1 Q. How did you find that out?
2 A. Oh, maybe about 10 or 15 people
3 besides my father told me. Jimmy Catura told me.
4 Q. Did you father also have discussions
5 about that incident with you?
6 A. Yes, he told me about it.
7 Q. What did he tell you about whether
8 there was a connection between him being shot and
9 Mr. LaPietra leaving the area?
10 A. He believed that Angelo was involved
11 and that's -- because of Gus he had to leave the
12 neighborhood.
13 Q. Because of Gus Alex?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Mr. Bills, I think if you can, you
16 need to describe a little bit about what the 26th
17 Street area was like growing up. Are there ties
18 to organized crime in the 26th Street area? Are
19 those ties pervasive?
20 A. There are a lot of ties in that
21 neighborhood. You have got the First Ward who
22 was real connected with the Outfit and --
23 Q. Who specifically in the First Ward?
24 A. The Carusos, the Rotis and anybody who
1132
1 lived in that neighborhood, if they weren't -- I
2 don't say anybody because there are good people,
3 but if say a police car pulled up, if they
4 weren't involved in organized crime, the people
5 in the neighborhood would call up somebody and
6 tell them that there was a car there, there was a
7 police car spying on somebody or looking at
8 something.
9 Q. From your experience in organized
10 crime, was that a difficult area to be surveilled
11 in?
12 A. Real difficult.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is that First Ward
14 essentially an Italian neighborhood?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
17 Q. Is it --
18 A. Italian and Irish. There is a lot of
19 Irish there too.
20 Q. Was it important to you growing up to
21 understand who the leadership of the Outfit in
22 the area was?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Why was that?
1133
1 A. I was very interested in it.
2 Q. Was it dangerous to be involved in any
3 criminal activity and not know who the people in
4 the leadership were?
5 A. You would be in a lot of trouble if
6 you did something wrong in the neighborhood.
7 Q. Can you give me an example of an
8 incident where somebody got in a lot of trouble
9 because they showed disrespect to someone with a
10 position in the Outfit?
11 A. One of Skid Caruso's brother, I
12 believe it was -- I can't think of his name right
13 now, but had had an argument with a young kid
14 named Jack Valenti.
15 Q. Could you spell that name?
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Give us a rough time,
17 roughly the age, okay.
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. '63 or '4.
20 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
21 Q. And I'd ask you to spell that name for
22 the court reporter if you can. Take a stab at
23 it.
24 A. V-a-l-e-n-t-i. And he had slapped one
1134
1 of Mr. Caruso's brothers, Skids' brothers.
2 Q. How old was Mr. Valenti at the time?
3 A. In his twenties, I believe, his early
4 twenties.
5 Q. How old were you?
6 A. I was a couple of years younger.
7 Q. Okay. What happened after that
8 incident?
9 A. Later on he got killed.
10 Q. Did you discuss these types of things
11 with your father?
12 A. With my father and other people.
13 Q. With your contemporaries?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. What types of message -- what type of
16 message did you take from that incident?
17 A. Everybody in the neighborhood took it
18 for a message that you didn't do what he did.
19 Q. How were top bosses like Gus Alex and
20 Skids Caruso treated?
21 A. Like they were kings.
22 Q. Where did you witness this type of
23 treatment?
24 A. At wakes and weddings, restaurants.
1135
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: How would that take
2 place? There would be a wedding or wake and in
3 comes one of the people you are talking about?
4 THE WITNESS: The whole room will become
5 silent and people wouldn't talk. Nobody would
6 just walk up to their table, okay. If you were
7 in a lounge and they walked in, like Albert Tocco
8 walked in on the south side at 103rd Street, I
9 believe he was a Congressman from out there,
10 Italian Congressman who lost his seat.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Redistrict?
12 THE WITNESS: They redistricted. I can't
13 think of his name. Black hair. He -- I mean, he
14 was like kissing Al Tocco on the cheek, it is so
15 good to see you. That's the kind of adoration
16 these guys got.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Let me refer you to another tab. This
19 is behind 6F, and I will do it for you so we can
20 make sure we are on the same one here.
21 Do you recognize the individual in
22 that 6F?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Who is that?
1136
1 A. Frank Toots Caruso.
2 Q. Did you have a relationship with Frank
3 Toots Caruso?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. What was the relationship with that
6 relationship?
7 A. We bummed around together for a lot of
8 years. I known him since he was a young man.
9 Q. Approximately how old were you when
10 you met Frank Toots Caruso?
11 A. I met him when I was young and he was
12 young, but through the years I have known him for
13 a long time.
14 Q. In your teenage years and early
15 twenties, did you --
16 A. Toots is younger than me. Toots I
17 believe is a couple of years behind me, but I
18 knew him, you know, from different gatherings
19 that we went to.
20 Q. What types of things did you do with
21 him?
22 A. Went out drinking, played pool,
23 burglaries.
24 Q. How often did you drink with
1137
1 Mr. Caruso, for example?
2 A. There was a time when I was with him
3 for a couple of years, almost every other day.
4 Q. What period of time was this
5 approximately?
6 A. In the middle '60s, I believe.
7 Q. Did you frequent any specific bars?
8 A. Toots was under age, but he could get
9 in the bars in Chinatown. They would serve Toots
10 anything he wanted. We also frequented the
11 Dragon Cue Pool Hall on 22nd Street. Toots could
12 also go on Rush Street and drink.
13 Q. When you say he could go on Rush
14 Street and drink, I could go on Rush Street and
15 drink. What do you mean?
16 A. He was under age, but because of who
17 he was, he got in.
18 Q. Did you get a sense that Frank Toots
19 Caruso was afforded special treatment at these
20 places?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. Why did you get that impression?
23 A. Because we didn't get a lot -- we
24 didn't get any checks in Chinatown from him when
1138
1 we were with him.
2 Q. You mean you didn't have to pay?
3 A. Didn't have to pay, and on Rush Street
4 the doorman or the managers of the places, they
5 gave him all kinds of respect. For a young guy
6 that's --
7 Q. Can you describe Mr. Caruso, Frank
8 Caruso's personality at all for us?
9 A. He was like a little prince in the
10 neighborhood.
11 Q. Did he have -- did you discuss with
12 him his father's position in the 26th Street
13 Crew?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What types of things did he tell you?
16 A. That his father was the boss.
17 Q. You mentioned that you committed
18 burglaries with --
19 A. A burglary.
20 Q. A burglary with Frank Caruso. Can you
21 tell us when that occurred?
22 A. I believe it was in 1966.
23 Q. Can you tell us about it? What did
24 you steal?
1139
1 A. There was a dress shop on Wentworth
2 Avenue on the west side of the street. Toots and
3 I and my cousin Sammy burglarized it and took all
4 of the dresses and the blouses and stuff out of
5 the store.
6 Q. What did you do with it?
7 A. We were going to sell them.
8 Q. And what happened?
9 A. The next day Toots called me at home
10 and said it is an emergency. His father said we
11 had to bring all of the stuff back.
12 Q. Why does this -- where did you take
13 it?
14 A. I brought it to Toots and we brought
15 it inside his mother and father's house.
16 Q. Why -- is this -- did you take this as
17 being any different than a parent calling a
18 wayward kid and saying you have to return some
19 stolen goods?
20 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that,
21 what he terms it. He has told what the facts
22 are.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think I'll sustain
24 the objection. Move on.
1140
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. What was your understanding of Skids
3 Caruso's authority over the criminal activity in
4 the 26th Street Crew area -- 26th Street area?
5 A. That he ran it.
6 Q. Could any criminal activity be
7 conducted without his approval?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did Frank Caruso, Frank Toots Caruso
10 discuss with you the fact of his father having
11 any conversations with Gus Alex?
12 A. Yeah. When Gus Alex used to call the
13 house, he used to disguise his voice so nobody
14 knew it was -- he talked in a high pitch voice so
15 nobody knew who it was.
16 Q. Toots Caruso told you that?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. What time period was this?
19 A. In the '60s, late '60s.
20 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named
21 Paul "The Waiter" Ricca?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. When did you meet him?
24 A. In that same time frame. It would be
1141
1 in the '60s. Toots took me to the Pancake House
2 on North Avenue and Harlem. He told me Paul
3 Ricca owned it and Paul Ricca was there.
4 Q. And you met him on that occasion?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Who -- what was your understanding of
7 who Paul "The Waiter" Ricca was?
8 A. He was the boss of the whole thing,
9 the whole Chicago Outfit, I believe.
10 Q. And did -- what was the interaction
11 between Frank "Toots" Caruso and Mr. Ricca?
12 A. He treated Toots like he was a
13 relative.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Describe the meeting
15 for us. You get there, you go to the Pancake
16 House?
17 THE WITNESS: We get in there and Mr. Ricca
18 is sitting down with two other gentlemen. We
19 went to the -- we went and sat down and he
20 recognized Toots, the other two gentlemen left
21 and he called us over to the booth.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What happened then?
23 THE WITNESS: He was asking him how his
24 father was and how his family was and things like
1142
1 that.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
3 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
4 Q. When you were working as a -- as part
5 of a chop shop operation, did Frank Caruso ever
6 come to you with cars for any purpose?
7 A. Yes. I believe he gave me four
8 give-ups.
9 Q. And what is a give-up?
10 A. They can be either somebody wants to
11 get rid of their car because they can't make the
12 payments or they want to collect the insurance
13 money on the car.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who was it brought to,
15 which one, which Caruso brought this to you?
16 THE WITNESS: Toots.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. And is this four separate occasions or
19 one occasion with four cars?
20 A. Four separate occasions.
21 Q. Over what period of time?
22 A. '79 until early '80s.
23 Q. Approximately what -- well, what --
24 did you have discussions with Frank "Toots"
1143
1 Caruso about these cars and what he wanted you to
2 do with them?
3 A. Yeah. He wanted me to crush them or
4 cut them up.
5 Q. What was the purpose of that?
6 A. So afterwards the individual, whoever
7 it was, could report the car stolen to that
8 insurance company and collect their insurance.
9 Q. Did you receive any money for this?
10 A. From Toots?
11 Q. Right.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why did you do it?
14 A. Because he is my friend.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: And you got the cars?
16 THE WITNESS: And I got the cars. I got to
17 cut the cars up, right. I didn't cut all of them
18 up, Mr. Vaira. Only two.
19 MR. BOSTWICK: You cut two of the cars up?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. I had it done in the
21 shop.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. Let me show you another photograph
24 that's behind the next Tab 6G. Do you recognize
1144
1 that individual?
2 A. Leo Caruso.
3 Q. And what -- does he have a
4 relationship to -- a family relationship to Frank
5 Caruso that you are aware of?
6 A. That's his cousin.
7 MR. CARMELL: Which Frank Caruso?
8 THE WITNESS: Either one would be his
9 cousin.
10 MR. CARMELL: I don't know which one he is
11 talking about.
12 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm sorry. I was saying
13 Frank "Toots" Caruso.
14 MR. CARMELL: I figured that out.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Right. Frank "Toots" Caruso, do you
17 know if he has a family relationship to Frank
18 "Toots" Caruso?
19 A. Cousin.
20 Q. Did you have a relationship with him?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And what was the nature of that
23 relationship?
24 A. The same kind of relationship I had
1145
1 with Toots.
2 Q. Over what period of time?
3 A. The same period of time.
4 Q. You went out with him drinking?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Did you ever engage in illegal
7 activities with Leo Caruso specifically?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Did you have discussions with Leo
10 Caruso about organized crime matters?
11 A. No, but I knew that he knew, you know,
12 who his uncle was. He was deathly afraid of his
13 uncle.
14 MR. CARMELL: I want to move to strike the
15 last part of the answer. The question was, and
16 he answered it no.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair.
18 I'll strike that.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. Who was Leo Caruso's uncle?
21 A. Frank "Skids" Caruso.
22 Q. And what was Leo Caruso's impression
23 of Skids Caruso?
24 MR. CARMELL: Well, can he say what Leo
1146
1 said?
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, did you ever
3 have a conversation with Leo Caruso about his
4 uncle? If you did, when was it and what did they
5 say?
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. Can you answer those questions,
8 Mr. Bills?
9 A. If Toots was out with us, everybody
10 had to watch Toots, and Leo told me, my uncle
11 will kill everybody if anything happens to Toots
12 or he gets in any kind of trouble, so everybody
13 had to watch that Toots didn't get hurt or he
14 didn't do something, you know.
15 Q. Did you ever get in fights in bars?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. Did you take that advice seriously in
18 terms of protecting Toots Caruso?
19 A. Very seriously.
20 Q. Did you get in fights on Toots
21 Caruso's behalf?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. What types of places?
24 A. With Toots, it was usually with a
1147
1 girl, either he wanted to take somebody's girl
2 away from him or somebody looked at his girl
3 funny.
4 Q. And then you would intercede, you
5 would break in?
6 A. I would be -- wouldn't be -- sometimes
7 it wasn't always me. But there would be other
8 people. Toots was famous for that.
9 Q. Did you ever attend a dice game in the
10 26th Street area?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. What period of time, approximately?
13 A. In the '60s was the first time.
14 Q. And was there a dice game running in
15 the 26th Street area over a period of years?
16 A. It was common knowledge that for
17 years, the dice game was running on 26th Street.
18 Toots took me the first time that I went there.
19 Q. And can you describe the situation?
20 First of all, were these dice games over a period
21 of years always in the same location?
22 A. Off and on they moved, but most of the
23 time the same location.
24 Q. Can you describe when you went on the
1148
1 first occasion with Frank "Toots" Caruso? First
2 tell us when it was.
3 A. It would be in the later '60s.
4 Q. Okay. Can you describe the situation,
5 where it was located?
6 A. It was located on 22nd Street. When
7 we went there, Leo Caruso was looking out for
8 police and Shorty LaMantia was looking out for
9 police.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you mean by
11 that?
12 THE WITNESS: That no police were pulling
13 up. One guy sat in the car with a police radio.
14 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
15 Q. So Leo or Shorty were doing that, or
16 both?
17 A. Shorty was inside at the time, Leo was
18 outside. And on different occasions, Shorty was
19 in the car. At another time I went, he was
20 listening to a police radio with a walkie-talkie,
21 and he had a walkie-talkie on the inside, so if
22 they got a call on the radio, they would call
23 inside to stop the game.
24 Q. So on the occasion that you went, this
1149
1 first -- first with Frank "Toots" Caruso, Leo
2 Caruso was out in the car with a police radio?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. What happened next? You were just
5 with Frank "Toots" Caruso only?
6 A. That was it, Frank and I.
7 Q. Describe the situation when you go
8 in.
9 A. It was a room similar to this, and
10 they were playing dice, Larry Pusiteri was
11 running the game, and Shorty was inside earning
12 juice money.
13 Q. Shorty LaMantia?
14 A. LaMantia.
15 Q. How did you know Shorty LaMantia?
16 A. I know Shorty for a long time.
17 Q. What type of relationship did you have
18 with him?
19 A. We drank together. I knew, you know,
20 what position he had. It was common knowledge.
21 Q. What position did he have?
22 A. He worked for Skids.
23 Q. Doing what?
24 A. Almost anything.
1150
1 Q. Well, what were some of the things you
2 knew of him to be involved in?
3 A. Gambling, loaning money, fireworks.
4 Q. Fireworks meaning what?
5 A. They would sell all the fireworks on
6 26th Street and at one time, everybody used to
7 sell fireworks in that neighborhood. Then they
8 stopped everybody from selling fireworks and you
9 could only buy them from Shorty LaMantia.
10 Q. Well, what was -- when you walk in,
11 was anybody at the door?
12 A. Yes, there was.
13 Q. Who was that, do you know?
14 A. There's a guy from 26th Street called
15 Gunner. I don't know his last name. He was
16 working there.
17 Q. And then describe the situation as you
18 go in.
19 A. The dice game was going on.
20 Q. Is it the situation where you open the
21 door and you're in that room?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. And what's in the room?
24 A. They were playing dice around a big
1151
1 table.
2 Q. Do you know any of the individuals
3 that were there?
4 A. Larry Pusiteri, Richie Catazone.
5 Skids was there.
6 Q. Skids Caruso?
7 A. Yeah, because Toots went and got some
8 money off his father. Some other guys from that
9 club. I don't remember right now. I couldn't
10 remember everybody who was in the game.
11 Q. Let's talk about some of those
12 individuals. Larry Pusiteri, who was he?
13 A. He ran sports betting and the dice
14 game for Skids Caruso.
15 Q. Over what period of time?
16 A. From the '60s until he died.
17 Q. Do you know approximately when he
18 died?
19 A. No, but I believe it was maybe in the
20 early '80s. I know he passed away.
21 Q. How about Richie Catazone, you
22 mentioned Richie Catazone, who is he?
23 A. Richie Catazone was involved. Him and
24 Larry were good friends.
1152
1 Q. Him and who?
2 A. Larry Stubich -- Larry Pusiteri. I'm
3 sorry.
4 Q. Do you know anything more about Richie
5 Catazone?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. What position, if any, did he hold in
8 the 26th Street area?
9 A. He acquired a big position when Angelo
10 LaPietra came in the neighborhood.
11 Q. How do you know that?
12 A. I was with Richie and he told me.
13 Q. What did he say?
14 A. That he was with Captain D and Butchie
15 Salvato in gambling.
16 Q. Approximately when did you have this
17 discussion with Richie Catazone?
18 A. '79.
19 Q. And did he tell you who he was
20 gambling for?
21 A. He told me he was working for Angelo
22 LaPietra.
23 Q. You mentioned Captain D, I think. Who
24 is that?
1153
1 A. Donny DiFazio.
2 Q. And did you know Mr. DiFazio?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Did you have discussions with him
5 about individuals associated with the 26th Street
6 Crew?
7 A. Anybody that was around Donny was
8 involved in gambling with him, Butchie Salvato,
9 Larry --
10 Q. Larry Pusiteri?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. How many occasions did you go to this
13 26th Street area?
14 A. Three.
15 Q. Three occasions?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When were the other occasions?
18 A. Maybe in the next year after that a
19 couple times.
20 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Bruno Caruso
21 there?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know Bruno
24 Caruso?
1154
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Tell us who Bruno Caruso is.
4 A. Toots' brother.
5 Q. And tell us about the situation where
6 you saw Bruno Caruso.
7 A. The next two times that I went there,
8 I saw Bruno Caruso at the game there.
9 Q. What was he doing?
10 A. Walking around like Skids' son.
11 Q. What do you mean by that comment,
12 anything more than just walking around?
13 A. You knew that he was -- you have to
14 come from that neighborhood, that society, to
15 tell something like that. I mean, he was walking
16 around like a little prince, but Toots was the
17 biggest prince. Okay. That would be the best --
18 I'm Skids' son, you know.
19 Q. Did you see Bruno Caruso with any of
20 these other individuals you've named, Richie
21 Catazone, Larry Pusiteri, Captain D or Richie
22 Catazone?
23 A. I seen him with them all.
24 Q. On that occasion or on other
1155
1 occasions?
2 A. On other occasions and that occasion,
3 I saw him with Shorty LaMantia.
4 Q. And Larry. Tell us about the occasion
5 with Shorty LaMantia, or was it more than one
6 occasion?
7 A. Yeah, it's a lot. For years I saw
8 them together. I mean, they were seeing each
9 other, you'd see them together two, three times a
10 week in the neighborhood, in Chinatown.
11 Q. Mr. Bills, are you aware of any --
12 well, you've spoken a little bit briefly about
13 ties to the 1st ward. Did you ever speak to
14 Toots Caruso about getting an electrical job in
15 the 1970s?
16 A. Yes. Toots told me that Gus Alex got
17 him a job on the city working for the electrical
18 department.
19 Q. Do you know if Gus Alex had any
20 position in the city?
21 A. No, he didn't.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You said that Toots
23 said that --
24 THE WITNESS: Toots told me that Gus Alex
1156
1 got him on the electrical department. And I
2 asked my father and he also told me the same
3 thing because he was a boss in that department.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. Were you aware later on of Toots
6 Caruso getting a job with a union?
7 A. When I went to meet Toots, he was
8 giving me a car, reached out for me to get rid of
9 a car for him. I drove to the neighborhood and
10 met him and he told me that Angelo was putting
11 him in the union and that he had bought a hot dog
12 stand right on 26th Street.
13 Q. Angelo who?
14 A. LaPietra.
15 Q. Do you know if Angelo LaPietra had any
16 position in any union?
17 A. No, he didn't.
18 Q. Do you know if Angelo -- do you know
19 what union this was or not?
20 A. I believe it was the Laborers' Union.
21 Q. Did --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: He was also getting a
23 hot dog stand?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1157
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Did you know Leo Caruso to hold any
3 position with the city?
4 A. Yeah, he used to sweep the sidewalks
5 on 22nd Street and Wentworth.
6 Q. How do you know that?
7 A. Because if you wanted to play pool or
8 you wanted to meet Leo, you know he had to sweep
9 the street for about 10 or 15 minutes and then
10 he'd go hide his cart and then he was free for
11 the rest of the day until he had to check it in.
12 Q. Did you ever pick Mr. Caruso or drop
13 him off at his city job?
14 A. I picked him up from the city job,
15 when he played pool.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Which Caruso are we
17 talking about here?
18 MR. BOSTWICK: Leo Caruso.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. I'm sorry. Let me ask you that
21 again. Were there occasions where you drove Leo
22 Caruso from his city job?
23 A. I picked him up right on Wentworth
24 Avenue, yes, where he was supposed to be
1158
1 sweeping, yes.
2 Q. And did you understand that during
3 that period of time Mr. Leo Caruso was supposed
4 to be working for the city?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And what did you do with him?
7 A. We went out and did anything we wanted
8 to, played handball, went to the poolroom.
9 Q. How often did this occur?
10 A. Every day, as far as I know.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Are we talking about
12 during working hours, between the hours of, let's
13 say, 8 and 4, during the day?
14 THE WITNESS: Right. Leo would bring his
15 cart out for 10 or 15 minutes and shake his broom
16 and then he'd hide his cart.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: His cart?
18 THE WITNESS: He had a little yellow cart,
19 pushcart.
20 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
21 Q. Do you know if that was -- did you
22 ever have a discussion with Leo about that being
23 a union job?
24 A. No, I didn't. I knew it was.
1159
1 Q. How did you know that?
2 MR. CARMELL: The phrase union job, does
3 that mean you're a member of the union because
4 you work for the city or is it a union officer
5 job? I think there should be some distinction
6 here. We all know that if you come in
7 employment, under certain jurisdictions you
8 become a member of the union. So is he asking
9 whether this is a job under the jurisdiction of
10 the union?
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think we established
12 he was working, pushing a cart and sweeping up.
13 And his next question is -- and we believe, he
14 was led to believe that that's a city job. So
15 the next question is is that a job covered by a
16 union. Do you know that?
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Do you know whether or not this was a
19 job covered by a union?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you know that?
22 THE WITNESS: I worked for Streets and
23 Sanitation, and so did my family. Everybody
24 knew, you know, about city jobs. Everybody
1160
1 wanted one.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Your father worked for
3 the city, too?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, he did.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: You said he was the
6 electrical department?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, the same department as
8 Toots.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. Did you have an understanding of how
11 your father got that job?
12 A. Years ago. He never elaborated on
13 that.
14 Q. How did you get your job with Streets
15 and San?
16 A. Through my father.
17 Q. I don't believe we tied up the period
18 of time. You've just testified that on a number
19 of occasions, for quite some time, you were aware
20 that Leo Caruso was not at his job, at this job
21 on regular working hours. What period of time
22 was this?
23 A. It would be in the '60s, but everybody
24 who knew Leo knew all you had to do to find Leo
1161
1 in the morning was, you know, when he was -- he'd
2 be around the corner for a while and then he'd
3 leave. Then he'd be playing handball or going to
4 the park or be at the poolroom.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: You guys, we've
6 reached, I think, a breaking point where we can
7 take time and we'll come back in a little over an
8 hour, right, Mr. Carmell?
9 MR. CARMELL: That would be fine. Thank
10 you. So that would be a little before 2.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: A quarter to 2 or
12 something like that. That would be great.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: It's a good time to break.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: I know he's going to
15 have him on for a while.
16 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was
17 adjourned until 2:00 p.m., this
18 date, July 22, 1997.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
1162
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4
5 IN RE: )
6 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
7 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
8
9
10 July 22, 1997
11 2:00 p.m.
12
13
14 The hearing resumed pursuant to recess
15 at the offices of the FBI, Chicago Division, 219
16 South Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois.
17
18
19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.
20
21
22
23
24
1163
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB
8 Attorney;
9 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
10 LTD.,
11 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
12 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
13 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
14 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
15 District Council of Laborers.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
19 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
20 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
21 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE,
22 MR. JOSEPH E. GRIFFIN.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194
1164
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,
2 I guess we can get back on the record.
3 Mr. Bostwick, you were in the middle
4 of examining your witness. Go ahead, sir.
5 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS,
6 called as a witness herein, having been
7 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
8 examined and testified further as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bills. Earlier in
12 your testimony this morning I asked you some
13 questions about a burglary that you participated
14 in with Frank Toots Caruso. Do you recall that
15 testimony?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And you said that you had been asked
18 by Skids Caruso to return the clothes, is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Did you have an occasion to talk to
22 Skids Caruso after that?
23 A. Two or three days later.
24 Q. Who was there?
1165
1 A. Toots.
2 Q. Anybody else?
3 A. Skid and Poopy Maenza.
4 Q. Who is Poopy Maenza?
5 A. He was an enforcer for Mr. Caruso.
6 Q. And what happened at that meeting?
7 A. Mr. Caruso warned me not to do nothing
8 in this neighborhood again unless I talked to him
9 and he didn't want his son in any kind of
10 trouble.
11 Q. Let me take you to a slightly
12 different period of time here. Well, first of
13 all, when was that conversation and that burglary
14 about in terms of time?
15 A. In the late '60s, I believe.
16 Q. When growing up, did Frank Caruso, and
17 by that I mean Toots Caruso, ever talk to you
18 about whether he wanted to be associated with the
19 Outfit?
20 A. Toots always wanted to be a boss.
21 That was his goal.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. He told me.
24 Q. Did there come a time when you had a
1166
1 conversation with Toots Caruso at the wake of
2 your uncle?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Who is your uncle?
5 A. Ray Bills.
6 Q. When was this wake about?
7 A. I can't remember. '81 or '83.
8 Q. Early '80s?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Were you associated with a crew at
11 this time?
12 A. I was committing burglaries.
13 Q. On your own so to speak?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Were you -- did you see Frank "Toots"
16 Caruso at this wake?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Who else was there?
19 A. Shorty LaMantia.
20 Q. Anybody else?
21 A. Duke Basile. He was with me.
22 Q. So you had the four of you talking
23 together?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1167
1 Q. Who is Duke Basile?
2 A. A burglarer and he worked in organized
3 crime.
4 Q. You knew him to be involved in
5 organized crime at the time?
6 A. No. He had gotten out like I had done
7 and later on he went back.
8 Q. I see. So you knew him to have had
9 some experience in organized crime at a period of
10 time beforehand and then also later?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. How do you know that?
13 A. Duke told me and I was with him when
14 he was putting the football together and he was
15 collecting money.
16 Q. When you say when he was putting
17 football together, what do you mean?
18 A. He was putting together a football
19 sports office.
20 Q. Betting office?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Bookmaking operation?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. How about Shorty LaMantia, who is he?
1168
1 A. Shorty LaMantia always was kind of an
2 enforcer and a gambler and a juice loan guy and a
3 burglarer for Skid Caruso.
4 Q. So the four of you are together, Toots
5 Caruso, Shorty LaMantia, Dukey Basile and
6 yourself?
7 A. And myself.
8 Q. What's said?
9 A. We were standing out in the lobby and
10 Toots called me. He said wait a minute. He said
11 what are you doing. I said trying to make some
12 money. He said why don't you come back to the
13 neighborhood. Come to work for me. He said I'll
14 make sure you make some money. He said Shorty is
15 with me now.
16 Q. Did you accept that offer?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. What -- why not?
19 A. I didn't want to be around them people
20 anymore.
21 Q. Did you -- which people?
22 A. Organized crime or the Outfit.
23 Q. Prior to this conversation, had you
24 heard from Al Tocco or Billy Dauber that Toots
1169
1 Caruso had risen within the Outfit?
2 A. One of the cars he gave me I gave to
3 Billy to get fixed --
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Billy Dauber?
5 BY THE WITNESS:
6 A. Billy Dauber and he had a chop shop at
7 the time and my garage was full and I gave it to
8 Billy Dauber and he got rid of it and I told him
9 who I got the car from.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Which was who?
12 A. Toots Caruso. And he says, oh, Toots,
13 he is Skids' son. He said yeah. He said, oh, he
14 took the giant step. He has got his own crew.
15 Q. Did you ever talk to Al Tocco about
16 Toots Caruso or not?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. What did Al Tocco say about --
19 A. That since Angelo come back, Toots got
20 to be a big man.
21 Q. Who is Al Tocco?
22 A. I believe he was the under boss of Al
23 Pilotto.
24 Q. Did you testify against both Billy
1170
1 Dauber and Al Tocco?
2 A. I never testified against Billy Dauber
3 because they killed him and his wife. I
4 testified against Al Tocco and Clarence
5 Crockett.
6 Q. Did you testify about activities
7 relating to Billy Dauber in any of your trials?
8 A. I can't remember if I testified about
9 Billy Dauber, but I gave a lot of 302s to the
10 agents.
11 Q. Let me focus on Bruno Caruso for a
12 moment.
13 Did you ever see Bruno Caruso
14 associated with any members -- any people you
15 knew to be members of the 26th Street Crew,
16 members or associates?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Who?
19 A. Larry Pusiteri, Shorty LaMantia, Donny
20 DiFazio, of course his cousin Leo.
21 Q. What types of occasions or events
22 would you see them together at?
23 A. Different restaurants and the club on
24 26th Street.
1171
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who were those four
2 again, LaMantia --
3 THE WITNESS: Larry Pusiteri.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Pusiteri?
5 THE WITNESS: Shorty LaMantia.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: LaMantia, DeFazio.
7 THE WITNESS: DeFazio.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am missing
9 somebody.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I thought you just said
11 four.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: DiFazio, LaMantia,
13 Pusiteri. I have got three.
14 THE WITNESS: LaMantia, Shorty, you have got
15 that, Larry Pusiteri, Captain D.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, and he said Leo, his
17 cousin Leo.
18 THE WITNESS: Richie Catazone.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. You say also 26th Street. Was that --
21 are you referring to the gambling operation over
22 there?
23 A. No. There was a club. There is a
24 club on 26th Street. It is the Italian American
1172
1 Club. Before it used to be -- it had another
2 name. Later when Angelo come around, they made
3 it the Italian American Club down there.
4 Q. Let me focus on Al Tocco for a
5 minute.
6 What was your relationship with Al
7 Tocco?
8 A. I collected taxes and paid my taxes to
9 him.
10 Q. Who did he -- who did you understand
11 he reported to, Al Tocco?
12 A. Al Pilotto.
13 Q. Do you understand that both of those
14 individuals, Al Tocco and Al Pilotto, were
15 organized crime bosses or under bosses?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Did you ever hear that Al Pilotto was
18 involved in union activities?
19 A. I believe he was -- he ran the
20 Laborers' Union out there.
21 Q. How do you -- who did you hear that
22 from or how do you know that?
23 A. From my father, from Al Tocco, from
24 Billy Dauber.
1173
1 Q. What types of -- what types of things
2 do you recall being said about that?
3 A. Just that he was the organized crime
4 boss in the Heights and south side. He was also
5 a leader.
6 Q. That's Al Pilotto?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did there come a time when --
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me interrupt you
10 one second. You mentioned two names, Al Pilotto,
11 just now, but in the same breath you mentioned Al
12 Tocco is involved in union affairs?
13 THE WITNESS: No. Al Tocco was never
14 involved in union affairs. Al Pilotto was.
15 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. I may have asked
16 just Al or something.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Did you -- did there come a time when
19 you bought a chair for Al Tocco?
20 A. Albert used to always complain about a
21 bad back and my partner at the time he was
22 Charles Satoris, so for Christmas we had bought
23 him a chair that rocked back and with a lot of
24 cushions on it.
1174
1 Q. Let me stop you for a minute. Who is
2 Satoris? Who is Mr. Satoris, your partner doing
3 what?
4 A. Chop shops, stolen autos, and we
5 brought the chair out to Albert's place at City
6 Vending and we brought the chair and maybe about
7 10 minutes after we were there Al Pilotto come in
8 and we were kidding. I said to Al, I said, oh,
9 we got him a chair --
10 Q. Which Al?
11 A. Al Pilotto. I said to Al Pilotto, we
12 got him a chair because his back is so bad. And
13 he turned and looked at Al Tocco and he said, oh,
14 he said. They bought the boss a chair. Albert
15 jumped out of the chair. He said, no, no. You
16 are the boss. Here, you sit in the chair.
17 Q. Did that incident reinforce your
18 understanding of the crew structure?
19 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.
20 He said what was said.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: I do think it is something
23 that he can testify to and that is relevant, but
24 we can also draw our own conclusions.
1175
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: I mean, it is pretty
2 graphic and whether he enforces it or reinforces
3 it, the facts are what the facts are.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. I am going to show you Exhibit 6 and
6 behind tab -- I'll turn you to Tab K and ask you
7 if you recognize that individual?
8 A. Jim Comforti.
9 Q. Did -- can you spell that?
10 A. No, I can't. I don't know how to
11 spell it.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Comforti, C-o-m.
13 BY THE WITNESS:
14 A. I am not sure. The pronunciation I
15 got -- I mean, they just said the name really
16 fast, I don't know how to spell it at all, when I
17 met him.
18 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
19 Q. Where have you seen this individual?
20 A. Ron Jarrett had made some kind of
21 burglary.
22 Q. Approximately when?
23 A. In the '60s. And Shorty LaMantia
24 wanted him to give up a certain end of the money
1176
1 to Skid Caruso and he was looking for him and
2 Ronnie was afraid. So he got ahold of me and we
3 took a ride to the neighborhood and my cousin
4 Michael Gurgone was there.
5 Q. This is you, Ronnie Jarrett and?
6 A. Michael Gurgone, my cousin. So we
7 waited on the corner of 31st Street and Shorty
8 pulled up and this gentleman was in the car and
9 we talked it out and Ronnie only had to give up
10 less money than before.
11 Q. Did you give me a time period on that
12 or can you?
13 A. In the '60s.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to run
15 that conversation back. Who was it that wanted
16 him to give up a portion to Skid Caruso?
17 THE WITNESS: Shorty LaMantia was the one
18 who got ahold of him.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: So what did Ron
20 Jarrett do?
21 THE WITNESS: He ran away and called me up.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: And you two, Jarrett
23 and you, did what?
24 THE WITNESS: And Michael Gurgone, my
1177
1 cousin, we went down to the neighborhood and
2 Shorty and this gentleman, Mr. Comforti, pulled
3 up.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Shorty LaMantia
5 and --
6 MR. BOSTWICK: This gentleman in 6K.
7 THE WITNESS: Right here.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Pull up?
9 THE WITNESS: In their car and Shorty said,
10 what are you doing? I said, can't you give him a
11 break? I said, you know he hasn't got that kind
12 of money. They don't make that kind of money.
13 The wind up was Ronnie didn't have to
14 pay as much money and the beef got settled. This
15 gentleman, I just -- I don't know if I am
16 pronouncing his name right or spelling it right
17 or whatever. He is just a guy that I met. Later
18 on I know through other people he became a big
19 boss.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Comforti. That's a
21 common Italian name, Comforti.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. Nick Guzzino, do you know him?
24 A. Yes, I do.
1178
1 Q. And --
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are you talking
3 about now?
4 MR. BOSTWICK: Nick Guzzino.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. How do you know Nick Guzzino?
7 A. Through Albert Tocco and Billy Dauber.
8 Q. What do you know about Nick Guzzino
9 and any affiliation he might have with organized
10 crime?
11 A. He's one of the crew bosses under Al
12 Pilotto.
13 Q. During what period of time, to your
14 knowledge?
15 A. When I found out about it, it would be
16 '79, '78.
17 Q. Approximately -- well, how do you know
18 that?
19 A. Billy Dauber told me.
20 Q. Anybody else?
21 A. I could tell by the way he was
22 respected by Albert Tocco that he was almost
23 equal to Albert, but not as strong as Albert.
24 Q. You saw him in Al Tocco's presence?
1179
1 A. Right.
2 Q. How about Dominick Palermo, do you
3 know of him?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What do you know about Dominick
6 Palermo?
7 A. He's a boss in the Heights.
8 Q. About what period of time?
9 A. The same period.
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. Different times when I had to meet
12 Albert, they would talk -- Palermo was there,
13 Dominick was there. One time they were talking
14 about --
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Before you go any
16 further, when you had to meet who?
17 THE WITNESS: Albert Tocco.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: You had to meet Al
19 Tocco. Okay. Now, go ahead. You had meetings?
20 BY THE WITNESS:
21 A. In the Heights, once at a restaurant,
22 and they were talking about a whorehouse they
23 were putting together out there, and --
24 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
1180
1 Q. A whorehouse?
2 A. And a lounge, they had it out there in
3 the Heights, on Route 30 or off of Route 30, I
4 think, and they were discussing that and what the
5 guy was going to do in there. Later on that day,
6 we went there.
7 Q. Who is we?
8 A. Me and Albert.
9 Q. For what purpose?
10 A. To have a drink, and he wanted to look
11 over how they set the place up.
12 Q. Michael Palermo?
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: I missed the part
14 about Dominick Palermo. You said you and Tocco
15 were meeting somewhere?
16 THE WITNESS: No. I had to meet Albert
17 Tocco.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay. Mr. Palermo was there.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I missed that.
21 He was at the meeting?
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: What took place at
24 that meeting?
1181
1 THE WITNESS: They were talking about some
2 guy opening a whorehouse out there.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: And what was Palermo's
4 conversation, part in the conversation?
5 THE WITNESS: His part in the conversation,
6 well, how much money is the guy going to put up,
7 how much is he giving us. He also -- they were
8 talking about they had to quiet down -- Albert
9 opened a place called Merlin's, a lounge, and I
10 had met Albert there one time and they were
11 talking about Nick D'Andrea and Albert was
12 telling Dominick that nobody could control
13 D'Andrea, that he had a hot temper and he was
14 always flying off the handle, and Albert was
15 complaining to him about Nick D'Andrea.
16 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
17 Q. Complaining to who?
18 A. To Dominick. They were both
19 complaining. Later on D'Andrea got killed.
20 Q. Michael Palermo, do you know Michael
21 Palermo?
22 A. Dominick's brother.
23 Q. Do you know anything about any ties he
24 might have with organized crime?
1182
1 A. I knew he was almost as equal as his
2 brother.
3 Q. How did you know that?
4 A. Through my father, through Billy
5 Dauber, through Albert.
6 Q. Did you ever see him in any
7 situations, Michael Palermo, like the ones you
8 just mentioned?
9 A. No, this would be just conversation.
10 Q. Do you know Marco D'Amico?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. What do you know about him?
13 A. He's a gambling boss on the west side.
14 Q. During what period of time?
15 A. '79, maybe to '81, '82, I knew.
16 Q. Is this the Elmwood Park area?
17 A. Yes, it is. And he used to go around
18 Grand Avenue, too.
19 Q. Did you ever have any incident with
20 Marco D'Amico?
21 A. I helped him in the fight at the
22 Condesa Del Mar.
23 Q. When was this?
24 A. '79 or '80, I think.
1183
1 Q. How about Robert Cooley, do you know a
2 man named Robert Cooley?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. How do you know him?
5 A. He was a partner with Artie Greco and
6 he was also a lawyer.
7 Q. Partner in what with Artie Greco?
8 A. In his restaurant on 95th Street.
9 Q. What was the restaurant called?
10 A. Greco's.
11 Q. Do you know if Mr. Cooley had any ties
12 to organized crime?
13 A. I heard that he did and I saw him
14 sitting with Butchie Petracelli and Harry Aleman,
15 different -- you know, anybody who was out there,
16 by Greco's, which was an organized crime hangout,
17 plus politicians, they would always say hello to
18 Cooley.
19 Q. Let me refer you to some exhibits, and
20 I think we'll be able to do the same thing we did
21 yesterday, run these by Mr. Carmell. He's going
22 to stipulate simply to their authenticity because
23 they're court documents, but preserve his right
24 to argue about relevance or what have you.
1184
1 The first item I'm going to give you
2 is a lengthy document, Exhibit GEB Attorney
3 Exhibit 109. It's a 90-page indictment
4 against -- well, it's captioned United States
5 versus Albert Tocco and Clarence Crockett, and
6 ask you to just take a look at that briefly.
7 Is that the Albert Tocco we've been
8 talking about?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. CARMELL: They are in, but you're
11 just --
12 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah, that's correct.
13 They're in.
14 BY THE WITNESS:
15 A. Yes, sir, it is.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: He's using them as
17 just further evidentiary purpose.
18 MR. CARMELL: That's fine. I'm just saying
19 they are in.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: They're in.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. This next document is GEB Attorney
23 Exhibit 107, which I don't think is in yet. It's
24 71 pages.
1185
1 MR. CARMELL: It is in.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: Is it? Okay.
3 MR. CARMELL: Yes. 107 and 108 I have.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me see that. I
5 think it is.
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. This is captioned United States of
8 America versus Dominick Palermo and Nicholas
9 Albert Guzzino and a number of other individuals,
10 and I ask you to just take a look at that. Is
11 that the Nicholas Guzzino and the Dominick
12 Palermo we've been discussing?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Did you testify or provide any
15 information in this matter, in this case?
16 A. I believe they used some 302s of mine
17 to deny Mr. Palermo his bond.
18 Q. Pardon me?
19 A. To deny him a bond when he was going
20 through a sentencing phase.
21 MR. BOSTWICK: This exhibit, GEB Attorney
22 Exhibit 24, I've been wrong on two in a row, I
23 think that this one has not been admitted yet
24 either.
1186
1 MR. CARMELL: That's correct.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: So I'm right one out of
3 three.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. This is an indictment that is 58
6 pages, United States of America versus Frank
7 Calabrese, Sr., Frank Calabrese, Jr., and a
8 number of other individuals, and ask you to take
9 a look at this. I believe you've referred to
10 Frank Calabrese in your testimony.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Which one of these Calabreses were you
13 referring to, Frank Calabrese, Senior or Junior?
14 A. Senior.
15 Q. Do you know Junior?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Did you provide -- what was the result
18 in the case against Frank Calabrese, Senior, to
19 your knowledge?
20 A. He pleaded guilty.
21 Q. So you were not asked to testify
22 specifically in a case against Frank Calabrese,
23 Senior?
24 A. No.
1187
1 Q. Were you called to testify in any
2 related matter against any of these
3 co-defendants?
4 A. One of the defendants, I was called to
5 testify about what I knew about the juice
6 business.
7 Q. Well, do you know -- when was that,
8 approximately?
9 A. About three months ago, two months
10 ago.
11 Q. Do you know the result of that matter?
12 A. I believe he was found guilty.
13 Q. Mr. Bills, are you receiving any
14 payment from the union for coming here to
15 testify?
16 A. No, sir.
17 MR. CARMELL: The union?
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. Just expenses.
20 MR. CARMELL: Did you say the union?
21 MR. BOSTWICK: From the union.
22 MR. CARMELL: Oh, I thought he said from the
23 union, not from LIUNA. I'm sorry.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: I did actually say the
1188
1 union. You don't consider LIUNA the union?
2 MR. CARMELL: I didn't know which union you
3 were speaking of.
4 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me clarify that. I
5 thought it was reasonably clear.
6 MR. CARMELL: It was, just not to me.
7 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
8 Q. Are you receiving any money from the
9 Laborers' International or the Inspector
10 General's office or the GEB Attorney's office for
11 your testimony today?
12 A. Expenses to get here.
13 Q. Only travel expenses?
14 A. That's it.
15 Q. As part of any arrangement with the
16 government, are you forced to attend and provide
17 testimony in this process?
18 A. No, sir, I wasn't forced. After I
19 finished Frankie Calabrese's trial, all my
20 obligations to the government were through.
21 Q. Does this testimony involve any
22 increase to your personal risk?
23 A. A lot.
24 Q. Have you ever had threats against your
1189
1 life made?
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. Due to providing testimony relating to
4 organized crime matters?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Mr. Bills, if this is not resulting in
7 any monetary compensation to you and it involves
8 personal risk, why are you doing this?
9 A. I changed my life around. I did a lot
10 of wrong things. I got involved in things that
11 I'm sorry for and this is my way of trying to
12 make it up. That's the best answer I can give
13 you.
14 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have any further
15 questions of Mr. Bills.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And I
17 understand, Mr. Carmell, you are examining him
18 tomorrow rather than today?
19 MR. CARMELL: Correct.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Okay.
21 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to offer which ones
22 of those exhibits --
23 MR. CARMELL: 24.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: 24 I guess is the only one.
1190
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the last one?
2 You testified not too long ago in which case, the
3 Calabrese case?
4 MR. BOSTWICK: It is a lengthy case caption,
5 U.S. v. Calabrese, in which there are a number of
6 defendants. Frankie Calabrese, Senior, the
7 individual he had most personal dealings with,
8 pled guilty.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Right.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: One of these individuals went
11 to trial and he testified in that. He just
12 doesn't recall the name of the individual.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: He said it was like
14 four months ago?
15 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah, just a few months ago.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a long case.
17 It's a '95 indictment.
18 THE WITNESS: It took a long time to go on.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: And he was convicted,
20 I believe.
21 THE WITNESS: He was convicted, yeah.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was the
23 individual you testified against?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. All I testified
1191
1 to -- I didn't even know him, Mr. Vaira. I
2 testified to how Mr. Calabrese's juice business
3 was run.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: That was part of the
5 testimony?
6 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe, for the record,
7 it's Philip Fiori.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's just my
10 understanding.
11 THE WITNESS: Because they asked me did I
12 know him and I said no.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: Just to clear up the record
14 here, is Exhibit 24 admitted?
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, it's admitted.
16 (WHEREUPON, said document,
17 previously marked GEB Attorney
18 Exhibit No. 24, for
19 identification, was offered
20 and received in evidence.)
21 MR. BOSTWICK: That's all we have for today.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell, we'll
23 wait for you tomorrow again.
24 Let's put on the record for the
1192
1 spectators here that tomorrow is at 9:00 and
2 we're going to do it here, right?
3 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. And then
4 following Mr. Bills' cross-examination and
5 redirect, if there is any, we'll go straight over
6 to the hotel and then finish the rest of the day
7 over there.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So the
9 spectators, the union persons who will be over at
10 the hotel, you'll get an audio portion in the
11 morning and then on stage live the rest of the
12 afternoon. Okay. Just so you know. So we start
13 at 9:00 in the morning. Okay. Thank you.
14 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was
15 adjourned until 9:00 a.m., July
16 23, 1997.)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
1193
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
2 ) SS:
3 COUNTY OF C O O K )
4 WE, JULIANA F. ZAJICEK and DONNA S.
5 PAPPAS, Certified Shorthand Reporters of the
6 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that we
7 reported in shorthand the proceedings had at the
8 hearing aforesaid, and that the foregoing is a
9 true, complete and correct transcript of the
10 proceedings of said hearing as appears from our
11 stenographic notes so taken and transcribed under
12 our personal direction.
13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set
14 my hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 22nd day of
15 July, 1997.
16
17
18 Certified Shorthand Reporter
19
20 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2194.
21
22
23
24
1194
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS DX CX RDX RCX EXAM
3 ROBERT COOLEY
4 By Mr. Bostwick 1099
5 By Mr. Carmell 1026
6
7 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS
8 By Mr. Bostwick 1106
9
10
11 E X H I B I T S
12 NUMBER MARKED FOR ID RECEIVED
13 GEB Attorney
14 Exhibit No. 24............................ 1191
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Laborers for JUSTICE © 1999 All Rights Reserved
Robert Cooley was a lawyer who worked for the Chicago Outfit before flipping as part of Operation GAMBAT.
www.nytimes.com/1990/12/20/us/5-indicted-in-latest-inquiry-into-corruption-in-chicago.html
His testimony is below
1024
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4 IN RE: )
5 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
6 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
7
8
9
10 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had in the
11 above-entitled cause at the offices of the FBI,
12 Chicago Division, 219 South Dearborn Street, 9th
13 Floor, on the 22nd day of July, A.D. 1997, at
14 approximately 9:45 a.m.
15
16
17 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
1025
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB Attorney;
8 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS, LTD.,
9 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
10 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
11 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
12 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
13 District Council of Laborers.
14 ALSO PRESENT:
15 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
16 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
17 MR. JIM WAGNER,
18 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
19 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE;
20 MS. COLLEEN RAE MASON, Legal Assistant,
21 Barack, Ferrazzano, Kirschbaum,
22 Perlman & Nagelberg.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194
1026
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,
2 let's go on the record.
3 We are going to continue the hearing
4 and we presume you can hear us over at the
5 Midland Hotel, and we apologize. We had decided
6 to start this at nine o'clock and somehow or
7 other we managed to keep it a secret, so now we
8 are ready to proceed.
9 Sherman Carmell, you are about to
10 examine the witness. And, sir, you are still
11 under oath.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
13 ROBERT COOLEY,
14 called as a witness herein, having been
15 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
16 examined and testified further as follows:
17 CROSS EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. When you began your career as a
20 Chicago police officer, what ward did you live
21 in?
22 A. It was the 10th Ward. No. I am
23 sorry. I am not sure what my ward was. I worked
24 in the 10th Ward. I worked out there in South
1027
1 Chicago. It was the 10th Ward. My ward, I am
2 not certain which ward mine was.
3 Q. Your father was a police officer?
4 A. Yes, sir, he was.
5 Q. Your grandfather was a police officer?
6 A. Yes, he was.
7 Q. And how many brothers and sisters do
8 you have?
9 A. I have six brothers and two sisters.
10 Q. And how many of your brothers were or
11 are police officers?
12 A. Four of them were policemen.
13 Q. Now, during the time that you were a
14 police officer and an attorney, you were familiar
15 with the term patronage system, weren't you?
16 A. Yes, sir, I was.
17 Q. And the city for purposes -- political
18 purposes, the democratic party was divided into
19 wards, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
21 Q. The ward had a committeeman and had an
22 alderman, is that right?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And jobs with the City of Chicago came
1028
1 from sponsorship through a ward person, be it the
2 ward committeeman or the alderman, isn't that
3 your understanding?
4 A. That for the most part was the way it
5 seemed to work, yes, sir.
6 Q. Were you familiar at all with either
7 the operation of the office at the 10th Ward or
8 the 11th Ward as far as being open at night for
9 citizens of the ward to come to see the alderman?
10 A. Well, I believe I knew Alderman
11 Vrdolyak was out there at that time and they were
12 open quite often different hours of the day and
13 night. He worked late quite often.
14 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions.
15 If you don't know these, just tell me because
16 many of these are just based on the fact I was
17 born and raised in the City of Chicago.
18 But citizens of a ward who wanted
19 something, be it better garbage pickup or help on
20 traffic tickets, would come to the alderman,
21 either in person or by phone, was that your
22 understanding?
23 A. I believe that was and probably still
24 is being done.
1029
1 Q. And these are ordinary citizens in
2 many cases?
3 A. In a lot of cases, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, the neighborhood that you have
5 referred to and has been referred to as 26th
6 Street, Chinatown, that was made up of two wards,
7 wasn't it, the 1st ward and the 11th ward?
8 A. Yes, that's correct. Part of that
9 area was the 1st ward and part of it was the 11th
10 ward.
11 Q. In your direct testimony, you referred
12 to the fact that the Mayor of Chicago lived in
13 that area, and he lived in the 11th ward, isn't
14 that right?
15 A. I believe that's true, yes, sir.
16 Q. An area that's generally called, if
17 you know, called Bridgeport?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And Bridgeport, during the time that
20 you knew it, was primarily people of Irish
21 descent, is that a fair statement?
22 A. A lot of Irish there, yes, sir.
23 Q. And the 1st ward had a number, or a
24 substantial number of people of Italian descent,
1030
1 is that correct?
2 A. In two of the sections of the 1st
3 ward, yes, sir.
4 Q. Now, you said that ordinary citizens
5 in the 26th Street area looked up to people who
6 you identified as organized crime figures. Do
7 you remember that?
8 A. Yes, sir, I did.
9 Q. And these people, or some of these
10 people, might not have known that the persons
11 that they looked up to were organized crime
12 figures, is that a fair statement?
13 A. Well, I think most of the leaders of
14 the group, again, I would have to personally say
15 that I would think most of the people there
16 realized who they were and what they were. I'm
17 certain that they did.
18 Q. And knowing that, these ordinary
19 citizens would come up and speak to these
20 persons?
21 A. Sometime -- well, you know, a lot of
22 times, they would and others wouldn't. Others
23 would just sit there and watch them go by. I
24 mean, again, it's a very -- it's an interesting
1031
1 neighborhood where everything is in like little
2 sections. I mean, there were certain people that
3 I would see out there that would never come out
4 and talk with anybody. They would sit and watch
5 us as we'd come back and forth. Certain ones
6 would never come into the restaurants or the
7 places where I would go.
8 Q. These various sections were pretty
9 close knit, wouldn't you say?
10 A. Oh, there's no question about that.
11 Q. And there were people who grew up in
12 the section, whose fathers were from the section,
13 when I say fathers, parents were from the
14 section, grandparents were from the section and
15 the children were raised in the section, isn't
16 that a fair statement?
17 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
18 Q. Now, when you first met -- when did
19 you first meet Marco D'Amico?
20 A. I met him when I was a police officer
21 working out of the 18th District. That was about
22 '65, '66.
23 Q. And at that time, you knew Marco
24 D'Amico as a gambler?
1032
1 A. When I first met him, yes, sir, he was
2 a person I was introduced to and I made bets
3 through him initially through Ricky Borelli.
4 Q. So he was a bookmaker?
5 A. I knew him to be a bookmaker, yes,
6 sir.
7 Q. When did you come to know that Marco
8 D'Amico, as far as you were concerned, was more
9 than just a bookmaker?
10 A. When I started practicing law and he
11 began referring me business and bringing me
12 business from certain families in the Chicago
13 area.
14 Q. So it was sometime after 1970?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. So --
17 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification of
18 what he means by families? He said families.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. So between 19 --
21 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
22 that point?
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I'm missing what
24 you're saying.
1033
1 MR. BOSTWICK: He said families. He said
2 certain families and I was wondering if we could
3 get a clarification before Mr. Carmell comes on
4 as to what he means by certain families.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: I guess I sort of
6 missed it. I got his answer that he started
7 sending him business.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Business from certain
9 families.
10 THE WITNESS: Well, I use that term in
11 relation to certain -- during the time that I
12 started practicing, I began to realize that these
13 organized crime, I call them families at times, I
14 call them groups --
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Groups.
16 THE WITNESS: -- I call them --
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: You're not just
18 referring to, like, the Murphy family or the
19 Jones family?
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I'm talking
21 about --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Organizations is what
23 you're talking about?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, yes, sir.
1034
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
2 BY MR. CARMELL:
3 Q. So between approximately 1960 and
4 sometime after 1970, you know Marco D'Amico only
5 as a bookmaker and gambler, is that right?
6 A. Well, again, I knew he was a bit more
7 as I got to know him because as I gambled and as
8 I was introduced to different major bookmakers,
9 and we had a major card game at my house, and
10 then there was one time when a card cheat got
11 into the card game and we found out about it and
12 I realized probably at that time that he was more
13 than just a bookmaker because they straightened
14 this person out.
15 Q. But it wasn't until you knew Marco
16 D'Amico for a number of years and knew him
17 personally that you heard from Marco D'Amico that
18 he was anything other than a bookmaker or a
19 gambler, isn't that true?
20 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
21 Q. Well, let me try it another way. How
22 did you -- did you ever learn from Marco D'Amico
23 directly that he was other than a gambler and a
24 bookmaker?
1035
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And that arose because of the long
3 personal relationship that you and he had had
4 from the 1960s on, isn't that correct?
5 A. Well, from the late '60s on, yes, sir.
6 Q. What I'm getting at, when you first
7 met Marco D'Amico, he didn't raise his hand and
8 announce to you, I want to tell you that I'm a
9 street crew boss, did he?
10 A. Well, not as such, but, again, would
11 drop hints and would -- he also took me over,
12 after a short time over to the social club he
13 belonged to and just being in there, you could
14 see that certain things were going on and it was
15 more than just a group of people meeting socially
16 to play cards and whatever.
17 Q. And from that, you surmised that he
18 had a position that was different than being just
19 a bookmaker or a gambler, is that right?
20 A. I saw from his associations and from
21 the other people that were coming and the people
22 he was meeting with that he was more than just
23 merely a bookmaker, yes, sir.
24 Q. While a police officer between 1962
1036
1 and 1970, did you place bets with Marco D'Amico?
2 A. Yes, sir, towards the end of my career
3 in the police department, yes, sir, I did.
4 Q. Did you receive any bribes from Marco
5 D'Amico?
6 A. No, sir, not when I was a police
7 officer, no, sir.
8 Q. You began practicing law in 1970. Can
9 you tell me where your first office was?
10 A. When I first began, I was renting
11 space from Allan Ackerman at 100 North LaSalle.
12 Q. Allan Ackerman is a well-known state
13 and federal criminal attorney in this area, is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes, sir, he is.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, he is. Yes, he
17 is. I attest to that. I've seen him in action
18 many times.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Did you sit in on any of the card
21 games in Allan Ackerman's office during that
22 time?
23 A. Yes, sir, I did.
24 Q. And how long did you spend in that
1037
1 office?
2 A. I was with Alan probably for a year,
3 year and a half, maybe. Then I opened my own --
4 then I believe I went and I started renting
5 space, I believe, with Katz, Hirsch & Weiss in
6 the same building and then I got my own office in
7 the same building.
8 Q. How long were you with the Katz --
9 renting space in the Katz firm?
10 A. Probably maybe about a year, year and
11 a half.
12 Q. What was your practice when you began?
13 A. Basically traffic work, criminal
14 work.
15 Q. Had you begun at that time to fix
16 cases?
17 A. From the very beginning, yes, sir, I
18 did.
19 Q. And in the very beginning, the cases
20 that you fixed, did they all come from persons
21 that you would describe as being members of
22 organized crime?
23 A. Well, not all, but a lot of them, a
24 lot of my early business was gambling, other
1038
1 cases, in fact, from organized crime people, yes,
2 sir.
3 Q. But you have cases from let's just
4 call them ordinary citizens -- I don't mean by
5 that that they may be ordinary, but I am trying
6 to distinguish between those that you have
7 referred to as organized crime. You had other
8 than organized crime persons' cases, is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes, sir. I never advertised when I
11 first started. All of my business came from
12 associations or from friends or friends of
13 friends. I would get referrals from some
14 policemen that I knew in different areas, I would
15 get referrals from people that just met me.
16 Again, a majority of my business was probably
17 from Marco and people such as himself. That's
18 where the majority of my business came from.
19 Q. The non-majority business, did you fix
20 those cases also?
21 A. During that time, a lot of matters --
22 I would make sure I won. I won most of my cases
23 in the beginning and if I couldn't win it on the
24 up and up, I would certainly pay if I had to.
1039
1 Q. You testified that after cases were
2 won, the records would be expunged. Do you
3 remember that?
4 A. A lot of times, yes, sir, for a lot of
5 my clients. They would want that done.
6 Q. And that was a state statute that
7 permitted expungement, is that correct?
8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
9 Q. So there was nothing devious about
10 getting a case expunged, is that correct? You
11 could file a petition under the state statute?
12 A. You could do that, but, again, we used
13 it for a different purpose. We used it so people
14 could have a clean record and get supervision for
15 a second or third or fourth time. In that sense
16 it was probably devious. During that time you
17 were only allowed to get supervision one time.
18 In other words, if you get arrested and charged
19 with something and you are found not guilty, you
20 were entitled to file a petition and have the
21 entire record expunged, but you were not supposed
22 to get it a second time. We would get somebody
23 supervision sometimes on a case and then at the
24 end of the period sometimes we would bribe the
1040
1 judge to make it supervision, terminate it in
2 stanter. He was given supervision for one day
3 and then it was -- then you could go and get it
4 expunged afterwards. Then if he gets arrested a
5 month or two or three months later, it would show
6 it as his first arrest and you could get him
7 supervision all over again.
8 Q. Staying with the expungement statute
9 for a moment again, as you understood it, anybody
10 who was convicted of a misdemeanor or a felony
11 could have the arrest and all of the materials
12 expunged according to statute by a petition filed
13 with the court, is that correct?
14 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
15 Q. And if a person had been placed on
16 supervision, two years after the supervision had
17 ended, the individual could then petition for
18 expungement under the statute, isn't that
19 correct?
20 A. That's the way the statute read, but
21 we worked around that.
22 Q. But you testified that it was expunged
23 and the expungement came from a court order, is
24 that right?
1041
1 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
2 Q. And in some cases you manipulated the
3 sentence, supervision or whatever it may be, in
4 order to make the person eligible under the
5 statute for expungement, isn't that correct?
6 A. Well, yes, and sometimes we just
7 forgot about the statute and the judges sometimes
8 would just forget about the statute and would
9 just expunge it as a matter of course.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: The state's attorney
11 has a right to object to that, does he not?
12 THE WITNESS: Again, in the early days the
13 system was very interesting and they just
14 wouldn't. They just would let it go by and they
15 would say nothing about it.
16 MR. CARMELL: The statute is mandatory. The
17 statute is mandatory and it is mandatory for --
18 it was changed in the '70s, 1971 to make it apply
19 to cases before 1971 and it is a state statute.
20 I can give you the reference if you want it.
21 BY MR. CARMELL:
22 Q. Now, Mother's -- the Mother's bar,
23 where was that located?
24 A. It was on Division Street and it was
1042
1 between Dearborn, Dearborn and State on the north
2 side of the street, on Division Street.
3 Q. And during what period of time did you
4 frequent Mother's with the group that you
5 testified about?
6 A. I started going there when I was in
7 law school and I was a policeman and I was in law
8 school during that time and I lived a short
9 distance from there. I lived only about a half a
10 mile from there.
11 Q. It watts a very popular bar with young
12 people during that period of time, wasn't it?
13 A. Yes, sir, it was.
14 Q. It was what was called or may be
15 called a happening place, it was a place to be if
16 you were young and on the street?
17 A. It was a very interesting place, yes,
18 sir.
19 Q. And when you went to Mother's during
20 the time that you were in law school, where
21 would -- what part of the bar would you go to?
22 A. Well, as I remember, it was a
23 downstairs section and that's where all of the
24 real activity was and I would hang there, I would
1043
1 hang in Butch McGuire's, I would hang in
2 different bars up and down the street there.
3 Those were my spots most every day.
4 Q. When did you get to the end of the bar
5 at Mother's that you described in your direct
6 testimony?
7 A. When did I get to the end of the bar?
8 Q. Yes. When did they let you in to that
9 end?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Well, as I understood it, there was a
12 part of the bar that you talked about that was
13 reserved for a group of people?
14 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection. I think he was
15 talking about another bar.
16 BY THE WITNESS:
17 A. I wasn't talking about at Mother's. I
18 was talking about later on.
19 BY MR. CARMELL:
20 Q. Faces?
21 A. Later on in Faces.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Faces, Faces.
23 BY THE WITNESS:
24 A. And at Ditka's.
1044
1 BY MR. CARMELL:
2 Q. And Mother's was the situation -- I am
3 sorry. Mother's was the situation where the --
4 there had been a fight and three young persons
5 had been charged with beating up a bartender, is
6 that right?
7 A. Oh, there were a lot more than three.
8 As I remember, there were a whole bunch of them,
9 but there were three in particular that the
10 parents were concerned about.
11 Q. Let's talk about Faces then for a
12 minute because I confused the name. That also
13 was a happening place, wasn't it?
14 A. That was a nightclub, one of the most
15 popular nightclubs probably in the city.
16 Q. And there were a lot of legitimate
17 people who went there, weren't there?
18 A. Oh, yes, sir.
19 Q. And did you go there while you were a
20 police officer?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. When did you begin going there?
23 A. When I got involved with these people,
24 when I began hanging with them because it was a
1045
1 private club and you were supposed to pay a
2 membership and I never paid a membership because
3 I was with them. They just let me come in.
4 Q. It was very popular and it was usually
5 very crowded, isn't that correct?
6 A. Most of the time, yes, sir.
7 Q. And you had an area at the bar where
8 you would spend your time with this group, is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And the group could consist of
12 anywhere from 6 to 10 to 15 or 20 people, is that
13 right?
14 A. There was usually a good size crowd
15 around them, yes, sir.
16 Q. And not all of the people were there
17 always at the same time, is that right?
18 A. Well, there were three or four that
19 were -- just about every day were there. I mean,
20 others were there and were not there, but there
21 were Butchie -- at one time Butchie -- I am
22 sorry, not Butchie, but Larry, Richie, Larry and
23 Richie.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Can we get a clarification on
1046
1 the last names if we are going to go through
2 this.
3 BY THE WITNESS:
4 A. Well, Larry Pusiteri, I think Richie
5 Catazone and a couple of others were always
6 there. When I say always, I mean almost always
7 on Wednesday and Friday nights. They would be
8 there sometimes other nights during the week too,
9 but others were sometimes there and were
10 sometimes not there and people would come and
11 people would go.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And I believe you mentioned something
14 about that the cute girls in the place would come
15 to that area of the bar, is that right?
16 A. People were -- certain cute females
17 were invited, not too many strange males were
18 invited. They didn't like the competition.
19 Q. And at any given time, how many
20 females would be in this group?
21 A. At any time probably as many females
22 as there were males, sometimes more.
23 Q. And to your understanding, were a
24 number of these females, if I can say, citizens,
1047
1 just people from the neighborhood or working
2 girls, and I mean by working girls, legitimately
3 working girls?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. It was also a very big place, I am
6 talking about Faces, for girls to come to?
7 A. Oh, yes. It was one of the happening
8 places in town.
9 Q. And Faces is located right in a very
10 popular area for young people, wasn't it?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. In fact, it was right around Faces
13 when the Bulls won that -- one of their
14 championships that the cars got overturned and
15 the young people had spilled out into the
16 street. Are you aware of that area?
17 A. I was -- I don't believe I was around
18 when the Bulls won -- started winning their
19 championships.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a very small
21 area of very close -- there is Butch McGuire's,
22 Mother's, what's next to that, Treetops or --
23 THE WITNESS: No, but see Faces was a little
24 bit down the street. Faces was a little bit
1048
1 south of there. You had Butch McGuire's, you had
2 Mother's and you had a couple of other spots on
3 Division Street within about a two-block area and
4 then if you go up to State Street and you make a
5 right turn and you go south, it was about three
6 blocks up. It was past -- I lived in Newberry
7 Plaza which was about two blocks from Division
8 Street and you veer off on the side to Rush
9 Street and Faces was on Rush Street. It was
10 another block or two down.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Relatively close
12 proximity?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. We walked back and forth
14 a lot of times from Division Street to those
15 places.
16 BY MR. CARMELL:
17 Q. How old were you during this period of
18 time?
19 A. Well, I was a policeman when I was
20 20. That was in '62. Around '70, I was 28, 30
21 years old, and moved on up from there.
22 Q. Were the people who were within this
23 group that you've described about the same age?
24 A. Some were older than us. I mean, but,
1049
1 some of us -- like I say, Richie was, Richie had
2 to be a good 10 years or more older than us.
3 Q. He was an old 32 or 33, yeah.
4 A. He was an old 40 at the time.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But there were some people older.
7 There were some older people. Marco was a bit
8 older than me. Some of the others, now, Bobby
9 was younger than me. Bobby Abbinanti was a few
10 years younger than me. They were various ages.
11 Q. Was there a lot of drinking?
12 A. On occasion, I mean, yes. Some of
13 these people drank a lot. Marco had a real bad
14 drinking problem. Others drank and obviously
15 were able to hold it.
16 Q. There were occasions where fights
17 broke out within the group, isn't that right?
18 A. Not within the group. Usually if a
19 fight broke out, it was some poor stranger coming
20 by and maybe talking to one of the girls and
21 somebody would get upset and these guys would do
22 a job on some people in there.
23 Q. Now, for what period of time did you
24 spend at Faces, by years, with this group?
1050
1 A. Probably three, four years.
2 Q. And when did that end?
3 A. Well, when I moved away from the
4 neighborhood, when I moved out to the suburbs,
5 then I would come down maybe once a week, once
6 every couple weeks or whatever. I moved away in,
7 let's see, about '82, '83 is when I moved out to
8 the suburbs.
9 Q. Now, how long a period of time did you
10 have an office by yourself? You moved away from
11 the Katz firm, I believe it is.
12 A. When I moved away, when I moved away
13 from Katz, it was to get my own office. I had an
14 office on the same floor where Johnny then moved
15 their office next door to me after we became
16 associated. I stayed there until I broke away
17 from them. Then I moved to 180 North and I moved
18 in with Bruce Wexler and some other attorneys up
19 there and I stayed there for about two, three
20 years, and then I formed a partnership with
21 Senator Lemke out on the south side and I moved
22 out to Archer Avenue on the south side.
23 Q. Was it a southern suburb that you
24 moved to?
1051
1 A. My own residence was in the southwest
2 suburbs, but my office was still in Chicago. It
3 was over on Archer Avenue in Chicago there.
4 Q. And how did your practice change, if
5 at all, when you formed your partnership with, or
6 moved in with Senator Lemke?
7 A. Well, I began a full service
8 partnership. I started doing -- we took in
9 everything from wills and from property matters
10 to personal injury. I did everything. At that
11 time, I was trying to break away from the
12 criminal practice and I probably had maybe 20
13 percent, 25 percent criminal work and the rest
14 was basically civil and civil related.
15 Q. And for what period of time were you
16 with Senator Lemke, the years?
17 A. For about three, four years, up until
18 a couple years before I began doing the work with
19 the Justice Department.
20 Q. And you began work with the Justice
21 Department in March of 1986, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
23 Q. And you left the City of Chicago
24 permanently in what year?
1052
1 A. '89. I believe it was November. It
2 was late in the year, November, December of '89.
3 Q. Now, the 20 percent of your criminal
4 business with -- 20 percent of the business that
5 was criminal while with Senator Lemke, did all
6 that business come from Marco D'Amico and people
7 like him?
8 A. No. I had tried to break away from
9 them a few years before that. I had a bad
10 situation with Marco where they referred a case
11 to me, Frank Renella, and while I was
12 representing Frank Renella, it was brought to my
13 attention that he was a stool pigeon who had been
14 informing on some dope dealers and when I was
15 told that, I knew that something would happen to
16 Frank when they found out and I went and warned
17 him, and when I warned him, I was told I was
18 going to be killed afterwards for that, for not
19 doing what I was supposed to do.
20 Q. Who told you that?
21 A. Well, somebody called me and warned me
22 and I left town and when I came back, I talked to
23 Marco about that.
24 Q. Did you then stop doing business,
1053
1 criminal business, with the people we've talked
2 about?
3 A. For a short period of time, yes, sir.
4 Q. How long?
5 A. I'd say it was six months to a year.
6 I stopped doing business with Marco and Marco
7 indicated, of course, he would never give me more
8 business, et cetera, and I told him I didn't want
9 their business. I was still getting some other
10 cases. But that was one of the reasons, again,
11 why I had broken away from these people and I
12 didn't want their business at that time.
13 Q. Did you end your social relationship
14 with Marco D'Amico?
15 A. For a period of time, yes, sir.
16 Q. How long?
17 A. I'd say it was about maybe six months
18 to a year.
19 Q. Did you continue during that six
20 months to a year to frequent the various bars in
21 Chicago that you had talked about?
22 A. Not those bars. I began to spend a
23 lot more time around 26th Street, in that area,
24 rather than going down to the Rush Street and
1054
1 those places. I would still on occasion go down
2 there, but I began spending a lot more time right
3 there in the 26th Street area and in Chinatown.
4 I had been referred that case by Pat
5 Marcy with the Chinese people and I had become
6 very friendly with the Chinese people, with On
7 Leong, and I began spending time both in
8 Chinatown and also in 26th Street.
9 Q. With reference to the On Leong case,
10 you testified that the On Leong group paid you
11 $100,000, is that correct?
12 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
13 Q. Are you aware that Wilson Moy told the
14 FBI that he had paid you $150,000?
15 A. Wilson Moy lied then to the FBI.
16 Q. So the 302 that we have in evidence
17 here in which Wilson Moy says that he gave you
18 $150,000, of which he took $25,000 and you kept
19 $25,000, is a lie?
20 A. Oh, yes, sir. I brought all this to
21 their attention when I came in. There had been a
22 problem when I was in New York, I was
23 representing the same people on a matter in
24 Boston from Eddie Chin, from the main Chinese
1055
1 individual in New York, and while I was in New
2 York, I was questioned as to how much I got paid
3 on my case, and I wouldn't tell them because I,
4 for whatever reason, got the impression that
5 Wilson had pocketed something for himself on that
6 money out of New York, and when I came back, I
7 was invited to a convention back in Chicago, and
8 when I was there, I was with Wing, who was one of
9 their main enforcers and Wing confronted Wilson
10 Moy about the amount that they had really paid me
11 and how much he had pocketed, and I had a little
12 discussion then with Wilson Moy about that
13 indicating that, you know, I don't know or care
14 how much he got, you know, I wasn't going to tell
15 these people. Well, he beefed on himself and he
16 apparently told them that he had pocketed -- he
17 told the people in New York he had pocketed the
18 additional money. Marcy questioned me about
19 that.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the, aside from
21 what is true now, what is --
22 MR. CARMELL: Exhibit 42.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Just outline for me,
24 because there's a question --
1056
1 MR. CARMELL: It appears on Page 3, and
2 taking my cue from my fellow counselor, I'm going
3 to read the part.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Exhibit 42?
5 MR. CARMELL: Yes. It's page 3.
6 BY MR. CARMELL:
7 Q. Quote, "Concerning Cooley's fee, Moy
8 said Cooley told him jury trial would cost about
9 $75,000." Let me skip down because I'll get to
10 the sentence, the one sentence. Quote,
11 "According to Moy, the Olma, O-l-m-a, was
12 charged a total of $150,000. Of this Moy
13 maintained 125,000 went to Cooley and Wilson Moy
14 and Eddie Chan skimmed an additional 25,000 which
15 they split."
16 And the sum and substance of it is
17 your testimony is that that was a lie?
18 A. Well, again, Wilson Moy himself only
19 gave me 10,000 initially and then 40,000 after
20 the case, and I went to New York and I received
21 the additional 50,000 from Eddie when I was
22 brought to New York because they wanted to pay me
23 there. So actually Wilson only paid me 50,000.
24 I got the other 50,000 from Eddie back in New
1057
1 York.
2 Q. Whatever may be said of who gave what,
3 your testimony is that you received only $100,000
4 for the On Leong case?
5 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. It was
6 actually -- it wasn't the On Leong case. It was
7 Lenny Chow and two other people. It was on a
8 murder case.
9 Q. I want to talk about your testimony
10 concerning the dice game that took place a few
11 blocks away from the Hungry Hound Restaurant. Do
12 you remember that testimony?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And you testified that you were there
15 for several years in 1978, maybe to early '80s,
16 is that correct?
17 A. It was somewhere around that time,
18 yes, sir.
19 Q. And how many times would you have
20 attended that dice game during that period?
21 A. A number of occasions. Probably, I'd
22 say, a dozen or more times I would stop in.
23 Q. You testified that all kinds of people
24 were at that game, is that right?
1058
1 A. Well, there were a lot of people. A
2 lot of people were at the game, yes, sir.
3 Q. And that there was a lot of -- it was
4 a dice game, there was a lot of yelling and
5 shouting that went on at the game?
6 A. Oh, yes. It was quite often very
7 noisy in there. Again, it wasn't a couple
8 blocks. It was down the block. I don't believe
9 it was two blocks away. It was across the street
10 and down the block on the north side of the
11 street, but it wouldn't have been two blocks away
12 from there.
13 Q. Were there, on the occasions you were
14 there, were there people who you did not
15 recognize or wouldn't identify as being organized
16 crime people in the game?
17 A. Well, there were people I didn't
18 know. I mean, there were certainly, I'm sure,
19 some gamblers there that may have just strictly
20 been gamblers and not organized crime people.
21 Q. Now, you got into the game, or got
22 into the room because somebody who was known
23 brought you to the game, isn't that right?
24 A. Well, I did not call Larry to tell him
1059
1 I was coming that night. I just went on the spur
2 of the moment. I remember I went there with Cal
3 Sirkin the first time.
4 Q. And when you went there, the person
5 behind the door saw you and wouldn't let you in
6 until he saw Cal Sirkin, isn't that right?
7 A. The person that was there, yes, sir.
8 The person that was there would not let me in
9 when I first -- when I knocked.
10 Q. Now, you said that certain people
11 stood around, or sat around, didn't play the
12 game. Do you recall that?
13 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
14 Q. You were one of them?
15 A. I was one of them.
16 Q. And you mentioned Rich Catazone, he
17 was one, is that correct?
18 A. On occasion, Richie would be there.
19 There were a few times when Richie would be
20 there, yes, sir.
21 Q. And he wouldn't be playing?
22 A. I don't recall Richie playing the
23 game, not when I was there.
24 Q. And your testimony was on several
1060
1 occasions a person you identified as Leo Caruso
2 was there?
3 A. On a couple of occasions, yes, sir.
4 Q. And did you ever see him at the game,
5 playing the game?
6 A. I never saw him playing, no, sir.
7 Q. Could he have been playing the game?
8 A. I mean, he may have on occasion, but
9 when I saw him, I didn't notice him playing at
10 the game. He was just there.
11 Q. And how long would you spend at the
12 game?
13 A. I might be there an hour, hour and a
14 half, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little
15 less.
16 Q. And what would you do while you were
17 there?
18 A. Just chitchat with people.
19 Q. So you were not watching the game at
20 all times?
21 A. I mean, I would be watching it. I'd
22 be curious when there would be a lot of activity,
23 I'd watch somebody win and lose. But, again, I
24 say I never played. I may have played once or
1061
1 twice for some short period of time, but dice was
2 not my game, and, you know, I just basically
3 would be there because I liked being there.
4 Q. How big was the room?
5 A. It was a good size room. Well, you
6 walked through the front, you went through the
7 front part first, it was like a store, it would
8 have been a store, probably, then there was an
9 areaway you walked back and you go back into a
10 big room in the back, a much bigger room in the
11 back, which then would lead out somewhere to the
12 alley. I guess, I was told they had an escape
13 route out there which would have gotten them out
14 the back in case there was trouble.
15 Q. How big was the room where the one
16 dice table was, where it was being played?
17 A. The room was actually probably a
18 little bit bigger than this, the room we're in.
19 Q. Do you have any -- can you give any
20 dimensions?
21 A. Oh, I don't know. This room is maybe
22 about 25 feet, 30 feet.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: About 20 by 50. What
24 do you say, gentlemen?
1062
1 BY THE WITNESS:
2 A. I'd say the room was probably about
3 the same size as this.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Maybe a little bit
5 longer than 50, a little bit longer than 50.
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject one
7 comment. You characterized it as one dice
8 table. He may -- you know, the record will stand
9 for itself, but I think he testified yesterday
10 that there might have been two.
11 MR. CARMELL: I believe his testimony was
12 there was another room where there was a dice
13 table, but at least he testified to one was in
14 use.
15 BY THE WITNESS:
16 A. No. I am saying this is a long time
17 back. I remember when you walked in, there would
18 be one table they would be playing at that was
19 directly in front of us as we were there. There
20 was like standing room and room to walk back a
21 little bit behind it. And I am almost sure over
22 a little bit to the right of that as you walk in,
23 I am pretty sure there was another dice table.
24 There was a table of sorts. I am pretty sure it
1063
1 was another dice table. Again, I am pretty
2 sure -- I am almost sure there were times when
3 there would be a couple of games going on, but,
4 again, I am not positive of that. I am pretty
5 sure there was a second dice table in there.
6 Whether it was being used or not I don't remember
7 right now.
8 Q. How many people would be in the room
9 at any given time?
10 A. Oh, I'd say probably 30 people, 30
11 people, maybe a few more.
12 Q. Now, the person you identified as
13 Frank Caruso, how many times did you see him in
14 that dice game during the period of time?
15 A. On a couple of occasions I saw him in
16 there.
17 Q. And did you ever see him playing?
18 A. I don't recall him playing. I don't
19 recall seeing him play. I just remember him
20 being there with a few other people.
21 Q. When you say with a few other people,
22 what do you mean by that?
23 A. There would be three or four or five
24 people just like standing in the back of the
1064
1 scenes, just milling around there. They had food
2 and stuff that was laid out there and whatever
3 and stuff for you to drink if you wanted
4 something to drink.
5 Q. So there was -- I am going to
6 grandiose it calling it a buffet. There was a
7 table there of food and it was free to go back
8 there and get food and you would see a person
9 identified as Frank Caruso on occasion, on the
10 occasions you saw him, at least one of the places
11 that you saw him was at that food table?
12 A. And milling around the room. It was
13 like a bizarre setting. As I say, the room was
14 relatively -- a relatively dark room. There were
15 lights in there, but it was a relatively dark
16 room. It was like a very interesting
17 environment. It was a very electric environment
18 in there.
19 Q. Returning for a minute to your
20 practice, you were very careful, were you not,
21 not to discuss the cases -- well, strike that.
22 If you took a case, you did not tell
23 the person who gave you the gambling case that
24 you were going to fix it, you just told him you'd
1065
1 take care of it, is that right?
2 A. Again, it would depend on the person.
3 I always assumed when I was dealing with people
4 that I was talking into a wire. That was always
5 my own practice when I practiced. When I would
6 talk to what I would call a stranger, somebody
7 that was not let's say a Marco or a Larry or a
8 Richie or Johnny or Patty or somebody that I was
9 in business with consistently, I would be very
10 careful how I would say things. I would quite
11 often indicate to a person coming in -- even when
12 a bookmaker would come in, a lot of times I never
13 told them what I was going to do. Marco would
14 send the people to me. They would come in. A
15 lot of times I wouldn't even have them come in.
16 A lot of times I would say I'll meet you in
17 court. I'll handle it. They a lot of times
18 would want you to say the magic words.
19 I would just say I will do what I can
20 do. I am pretty sure you'll be okay or I am
21 pretty sure there won't be a problem. It was not
22 that often that I would talk to a stranger and
23 tell them that I was going to fix something. I
24 would not use those words.
1066
1 Q. Who did you tell that you had fixed
2 the Harry Aleman case?
3 A. I didn't tell anybody other than the
4 people I was dealing with.
5 Q. Which would have been Pat Marcy?
6 A. Well, Pat Marcy wanted it done. I
7 mean, so, I just -- I never said to Pat, the case
8 is fixed. I said it will be taken care of and
9 the right thing will happen. I never discussed
10 that with -- well, Johnny D'Arco. I told my
11 partner obviously. At the time I was partners
12 with Johnny D'Arco. I discussed it with Pat
13 DeLeo I am sure because they were with me and
14 they were part of our group, but I did not
15 tell -- I did not tell any of my other friends
16 obviously that I was doing this.
17 Q. And you didn't tell them afterwards
18 that you had done it?
19 A. Well, not until I came forward and
20 started working with the federal authorities.
21 Q. Up until March of 1980 -- let me go
22 back. The Aleman case was fixed when?
23 A. I believe it was in '77, I believe.
24 Q. Between '77 and 1986, you did not tell
1067
1 any of your friends that you had fixed the case?
2 A. I can't think of anybody I did tell or
3 I would want to tell. That was not something I
4 would ever discuss with strangers. When I say
5 strangers, I mean somebody who wasn't part of our
6 world. I just didn't -- I had my own friends. I
7 had a lot of good friends and legitimate friends
8 that I dealt with. I would never discuss
9 anything like that with them.
10 Q. Did you tell your non-legitimate
11 friends, aside from the people you just
12 mentioned, that you had fixed the Harry Aleman
13 case?
14 A. I didn't tell, but I was aware a lot
15 of them knew it. A lot of them found out, but
16 not from me. I am talking about the organized
17 crime people. A lot of them. Well, see, when I
18 fixed the case, Marco was involved in the fixing
19 of the case. When I met with Harry, the first
20 time I met Harry to discuss the fact that I was
21 taking care of everything, Marco arranged the
22 meeting. Marco was the one who arranged to meet
23 in a hotel over there up in the northwest
24 suburbs, and so who all Marco told I don't know,
1068
1 but obviously Marco knew about it. He was
2 inter-involved in it.
3 Q. Let's go to Counselor's Row. There
4 was a table which has now been described as the
5 First Ward table, and when you would be there,
6 who would sit at that table?
7 A. Freddie Roti was there every day for
8 breakfast, he was there for lunch, he would be
9 there on again, off again.
10 When I first began with this
11 particular group, Pat Marcy would be there
12 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday
13 initially. He would be there four days a week,
14 but Pat would never usually come in until about
15 11:30, twelve o'clock. Freddie would usually be
16 gone about 4:00, 4:30, 5:00. Freddie would no
17 longer be there. Pat would be there. You'd
18 have -- I mean, a lot of elected officials, a
19 lot of mob guys would come there, some other
20 lawyers, a few other lawyers that were
21 inter-involved with these people and sometimes
22 Freddie would have a lot of other alderman, the
23 city clerk, the city clerk would be there.
24 Basically political people and inter-connected
1069
1 people. As I say, a lot of union, different
2 union officials from all around the county would
3 be coming back and forth to the table.
4 Q. Let me try and break this down a bit
5 if I might. Counselor's Row was located on what
6 street?
7 A. On LaSalle Street.
8 Q. And it was directly west of the City
9 Hall/County Building at that time, was it not?
10 A. That's correct, directly across the
11 street.
12 Q. And that's where all of the county
13 offices were, all of the city offices were and
14 some of the courts were there or they were just
15 in the building that was a block away?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. I don't think the Daley Center had
18 been built at that time, had it?
19 A. Oh, yeah, but it wasn't called the
20 Daley Center initially. Initially -- in fact, a
21 lot of cases were in that court, criminal and
22 civil, but it wasn't called the Daley Center. It
23 was called something else before that, but it was
24 there.
1070
1 Q. So all of the workings of the city and
2 county were in the building that was just across
3 the street to the east of Counselor's Row?
4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 Q. And there -- at the First Ward table
6 as I understand it while you would be there,
7 there would be just numbers of people coming up
8 and going, politicians, is that correct?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Judges?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. City officials?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. County officials?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. Labor union officials?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. People you have identified as
19 organized crime people?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And at any given time when you would
22 be there at the table, how many persons would be
23 seated or near the table who would be described
24 as what we have just gone through?
1071
1 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. Wait a minute.
2 That seems too broad a question.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, the question is
4 at any given time how many of these either
5 politicals, OC or public officials?
6 MR. BOSTWICK: So is he going to break that
7 down into groups?
8 MR. CARMELL: No, I am not asking groups. I
9 am just asking how many people could be at a
10 table at a given time or standing at the table.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: The description was
12 there are no really strangers hanging around
13 there. They had to fall into this group.
14 THE WITNESS: If you weren't invited, if you
15 weren't part of either the inter-circle or were
16 there for some specific reason for a short period
17 of time, it was -- as I say, it was like
18 Freddie's table early in the morning. Freddie
19 would have breakfast for as long as I knew him
20 almost every day there. He would be there at
21 like eight o'clock. A lot of different alderman
22 would be there at that particular time and you
23 would have -- like the city clerk was quite often
24 there. Stanley was there a lot and would be
1072
1 there. He would have a few of his people with
2 him. There would be other people inter-connected
3 with the alderman.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Stanley?
5 BY MR. CARMELL:
6 Q. Kusper?
7 A. Kusper. For a long time Stanley would
8 be there. Stanley would be there in the morning
9 sometimes with Freddie's group.
10 Then when Marcy would come in, it like
11 became -- it was like Marcy's table and so
12 Freddie would be fine and with his people until
13 about noon. When Pat would come in, if there
14 were no open chairs, the people would have to get
15 up and Pat usually had the same seat. Pat
16 usually sat where he could face what was coming
17 in. He liked to sit in the corner either against
18 the one wall or the wall to the left of him where
19 he could see everything coming and going around
20 him.
21 When Pat was there, there was rarely
22 an open chair from noon until about maybe two,
23 three o'clock. Then Pat would quite often go
24 upstairs to the ward office and do whatever he
1073
1 does. Then sometimes the table would -- there
2 would be nobody there. I would be there by
3 myself with my friends sometimes during that
4 period.
5 Q. So the First Ward office was upstairs
6 of Counselor's Row?
7 A. That was upstairs, yes, sir.
8 Q. And weren't there numbers of people
9 who would come by just to say hello, how are you,
10 Pat, how is it going?
11 A. Oh, all of the time, all of the time.
12 Q. Who didn't have anything more to say
13 than that?
14 A. I mean every day. I mean, we are
15 talking about hundreds of people probably in a
16 given day would walk by and just say hi and Pat
17 would just say hi and they would go about their
18 business.
19 Q. Now, you testified that legitimate, as
20 you put it, First Ward business was discussed at
21 the table. What would you describe as legitimate
22 First Ward business?
23 A. Well, non-fixing of cases.
24 Q. Sir, don't give me the negatives. Try
1074
1 and give me the positives.
2 A. Again, there were a series of alderman
3 down there a lot where they would be discussing
4 different political things that were going on,
5 they would be discussing parties or events or a
6 lot of things. Sometimes people from the ward
7 might come and sit and talk to the alderman there
8 about different problems or different things.
9 There were a whole series of legitimate things
10 that would take place in the every day -- in the
11 every day comings and goings.
12 Q. When you wanted to speak to Pat Marcy
13 about as you put it dirty things, you would go
14 out, you would do one of two things, you would go
15 out into the hall or go to the booth near the
16 register, is that right?
17 A. Well, I would walk in, a lot of times
18 it would be arranged. Pat would leave a message
19 for me or tell me to come. As I would see him,
20 when I would walk up, as soon as he would see me
21 we would make contact and I knew what to do. He
22 would make contact or I would, I would walk out
23 into the hall and he would come walking out right
24 behind me. Other times I would come in there not
1075
1 knowing something had to be done and when I would
2 walk in, as soon as Pat would see me he would
3 just motion me and he would go as a rule out into
4 the hall, but sometimes like when it was real
5 crowded, a lot of people were out there, he would
6 walk to the back of the room or on a given
7 occasion walk over to a booth alongside the cash
8 register, a short distance from the table.
9 Q. You gave in testimony instances with a
10 person you identified as Bruno Caruso having gone
11 out into the hall with Pat Marcy --
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. -- on a couple of occasions?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And how many people on a given day
16 would go out into the hall with Pat Marcy while
17 you were there?
18 A. Some days nobody, other days one,
19 maybe two people, sometimes maybe even more
20 depending. I mean, Judge Scotillo would come
21 there a lot because Tony ran things over for him
22 over in the Civic Center. It used to be called
23 the Civic Center before the Daley Center. He
24 used to come over there and a lot of times he
1076
1 would come over there two, three times a day when
2 they were doing different deeds of theirs. Other
3 people too would come sometimes once, twice a
4 week, people like myself.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who is this you are
6 talking about might come over two, three times?
7 THE WITNESS: Tony Scotillo when he was over
8 there. He was the one who did a lot of the
9 illegal things for Pat with the other judges in
10 particular.
11 BY MR. CARMELL:
12 Q. When you saw the person identified as
13 Bruno Caruso, were there other people in and
14 around the First Ward table when he came in?
15 A. There were always people around the
16 table. I mean, when I say always, I can't think
17 of many times when there weren't a lot of people,
18 a lot of people there.
19 Q. Did you know at the time you saw Bruno
20 Caruso whether he held any position with any
21 union?
22 A. When I first met them and saw them,
23 no, I didn't know. When I very first saw certain
24 people, I didn't. I gained knowledge after a
1077
1 while that they had some position. What exactly
2 it was, I didn't know. I didn't know what any of
3 them did.
4 Q. And that carried through to your
5 testimony that you knew about Bruno Caruso in
6 Counselor's Row?
7 A. That's correct, even up until the time
8 I came to work for the government I never knew
9 what these people did or didn't do. I never
10 asked.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, if you're at
12 a spot, you may want a physiological break here.
13 MR. CARMELL: I think this is a good time
14 for it, if I might.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Take a
16 10-minute break.
17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
18 BY MR. CARMELL:
19 Q. Putting an end to the Counselor's Row
20 and people who would go out in the hall with Pat
21 Marcy, let me get the categories, there would be
22 judges, is that correct?
23 A. Well, there were a few judges I saw
24 him dealing with, yes, sir.
1078
1 Q. Some politicians?
2 A. There were, yes, sir, there were a few
3 politicians I would see him go outside with.
4 Q. Some attorneys?
5 A. A few attorneys, yes, sir.
6 Q. And some people who you didn't know
7 who they were?
8 A. Well, I mean, you know, some I -- some
9 others that I knew and some I didn't know, yes,
10 sir. There were some people I didn't know.
11 Q. Now, let's talk about the Rosewood
12 Restaurant. Where was it located?
13 A. You mean the Redwood, you mean?
14 Q. Redwood. I'm sorry.
15 A. It was on, I believe around 31st
16 Street and it was right around, I think,
17 Wallace. It was right there in the center of the
18 activity.
19 Q. Was it in the middle of the block?
20 A. No, it was on the corner.
21 Q. And so it was on the corner of Wallace
22 and 31st?
23 A. I'm indicating it was 31st or 32nd,
24 either 31st or 32nd. I think 31st was the busy
1079
1 street. It was not on a busy street, east-west
2 street. It might have been 32nd. And I believe
3 it was like Wallace or one of those streets right
4 there. It was on the southwest corner.
5 Q. And when did you first begin
6 frequenting Rosewood?
7 A. The Redwood.
8 Q. Redwood.
9 A. Redwood.
10 Q. Let me write this down.
11 A. Oh, I started probably 20 years ago, I
12 started going there, I went there for probably
13 about 8, 9, 10 years, starting about '7 -- in the
14 late '70s, early '80s.
15 Q. And when did you stop going to the
16 Redwood?
17 A. When I left town. I wore a wire in
18 there on a few occasions, not with Nicky. Nicky
19 was a straight -- Nicky wasn't organized crime.
20 He wasn't involved with those people, but it was
21 his bar, he owned the bar. But I wore a wire in
22 there when I talked to Dirge and a couple other
23 occasions I wore a wire in there when I was
24 dealing with some of the organized crime people
1080
1 in the neighborhood.
2 Q. And where would the barbecue be held?
3 A. He'd sometimes barbecue right out in
4 front. He had a grill he'd put out in front.
5 Q. Out front where?
6 A. On, I believe it would have been 32nd
7 Street, right there on the sidewalk.
8 Q. And were there tables outside?
9 A. He would have, like, like a little
10 stool, there would be like stools over there
11 along side the wall of the restaurant and I
12 imagine there were tables we put out there. The
13 food would then be put on the tables, and so
14 forth.
15 Q. Well, when you were out there at the
16 barbecue, where would you be standing or seated?
17 A. Just standing around there. There was
18 an area of sidewalk that was right there along
19 side the restaurant.
20 Q. And it ran along 32nd Street?
21 A. I believe it was 32nd Street there.
22 Q. Well, one of the number streets, 31st,
23 32nd Street, would that be fair?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1081
1 Q. Which side of 32nd Street -- let me
2 call it 32nd Street with the understanding we may
3 be off one or two. Which side of 32nd Street was
4 the restaurant located?
5 A. On the south side.
6 Q. And which way did the traffic go that
7 would pass by the restaurant closest to --
8 A. Both streets were two-way streets. He
9 had the restaurant -- it was more a bar, it
10 wasn't a restaurant, it was basically a bar.
11 They may have had sandwiches and stuff there.
12 And when I say he had a barbecue, that was just
13 his own thing. He sometimes for the, you know,
14 for his customers, he would have a barbecue out
15 in front and would just barbecue something. But
16 it was mainly just a bar where people went and
17 drank.
18 But it sat right in the corner, so on
19 the one side, you had, I believe, that was
20 Wallace, and I'm saying I think it was Wallace,
21 one of the streets that was pretty active with
22 traffic going up and down, and on 32nd Street,
23 and I think, again, it was 32nd, you had traffic
24 going east and west.
1082
1 Q. And the barbecue would be held on the
2 32nd Street side of the restaurant?
3 A. Well, when I say barbecue, he would be
4 barbecuing stuff out there. As I remember, any
5 time he did it, he usually did it right there
6 because there was a lot of room right there
7 alongside the restaurant.
8 Q. And a person who would be at the
9 barbecue would be on the 32nd Street side of the
10 restaurant, is that correct?
11 A. Well, we'd be standing on both sides.
12 I mean, you'd walk around the front, people would
13 be walking around on the one street or walking on
14 the other street. We'd be milling around there.
15 Q. So the customers, let me call them
16 customers, including you, would be milling around
17 on 32nd Street or on the Wallace side, is that
18 correct?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. And there would be foot traffic, is
21 that correct?
22 A. Not a lot of foot traffic around
23 there, no, there was not -- there was never a lot
24 of foot traffic around there other than people
1083
1 coming to the bar.
2 Q. And as far as automobile traffic, it
3 was a well trafficked area, is that correct?
4 A. There would be activity up and down
5 both the streets.
6 Q. And for what years did Nicky run or
7 serve this barbecue?
8 A. I mean, as long as I knew him. I
9 mean, he would on a given occasion do it, like
10 for the 4th of July, periods like that.
11 Sometimes he would just do it.
12 Q. Now, the barbecue obviously was held
13 when there was warm weather, is that correct?
14 A. I don't remember if we had it during
15 the cold weather or not. We may have on a given
16 occasion on the spur of the moment done
17 something, but usually it would be when the
18 weather was nice.
19 Q. Now, you identified having seen Angelo
20 LaPietra driving through the neighborhood. Do
21 you remember that?
22 A. On different occasions we would see
23 him drive through, yes, sir.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. LaPietra's
1084
1 automobile?
2 A. He would be -- he usually had the same
3 car, as I remember, for a period of time, he had
4 the same car. Other times he would be in
5 different cars with different people.
6 Q. And where did Mr. LaPietra sit in the
7 car?
8 A. He would usually be in the passenger's
9 side. Somebody else was usually driving.
10 Q. The windows wouldn't be rolled down,
11 would they?
12 A. Sometimes in the summertime. I mean,
13 the windows would be open on occasion.
14 Q. I want you to use all of the
15 experience you've had in all of these years and
16 all this testimony. According to your
17 testimony -- and LaPietra is the boss of the 26th
18 Street area, is that right?
19 A. He was, I believe he was more than
20 that for some period, just --
21 Q. Even higher up than that?
22 A. He seemed to be, yes, sir.
23 Q. And Angelo LaPietra is driving through
24 the neighborhood sitting in the front seat with
1085
1 the window down on the passenger's side?
2 A. Oh, there were occasions. That was
3 his neighborhood. That was his territory.
4 Q. I see.
5 A. I'm trying to remember, but as I
6 remember, the windows, they may have been up,
7 they may have been down, but I don't think it was
8 a very secure situation when he would go through.
9 Q. Mr. LaPietra was in the passenger side
10 of the car, is that correct?
11 A. He usually had -- I didn't usually see
12 him driving. Somebody else would normally be
13 driving.
14 Q. And he'd be in the passenger side of
15 the car?
16 A. Usually, yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. And that would -- the
18 passenger side of the car was the side that was
19 closest to your line of vision?
20 A. On occasion. It would depend if they
21 came down 31st or 32nd or if they went down
22 Wallace, but if he was on Wallace, he would not
23 be closest to me. The driver would be closest to
24 me. The other people might be there, you know.
1086
1 Q. So if they came down Wallace, for you
2 to identify Mr. LaPietra, you would have had to
3 look across the lanes of traffic through the
4 driver of the car and then see Mr. LaPietra in
5 the passenger side, isn't that correct?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And were there other people -- I know
8 that you said that you saw the person you
9 identified as Bruno Caruso in the car with
10 Mr. LaPietra. Where was he sitting?
11 A. In the back seat. He'd be in the back
12 seat. Again, I saw them on more than one
13 occasion. So, I mean, on which particular
14 occasion? Usually there would be -- a lot of
15 times, again, I probably saw Angelo maybe a
16 couple dozen or more times over a long period,
17 before he went to the penitentiary. He was gone,
18 I believe, when I left town. But before that, I
19 mean, a lot of times you would see him. It was
20 not an infrequent situation.
21 Q. When, as you testified, you recall
22 seeing the person Bruno Caruso in the automobile
23 with Angelo LaPietra, where was Mr. Caruso
24 sitting?
1087
1 A. He would have been in the back seat,
2 as I remember.
3 Q. On the driver's side of the back seat
4 or the passenger's side of the back seat?
5 A. I really can't be specific. I really
6 don't know. I don't remember.
7 Q. Were there occasions when you saw the
8 automobile with Mr. LaPietra that had three
9 people in the back seat?
10 A. I don't think so. Usually it would be
11 a couple people. Usually it would be a couple
12 people. And quite often it was just him and the
13 driver. Quite often it would be just him and the
14 driver going wherever they went.
15 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Cooley, that you
16 didn't observe this, somebody told you that a
17 person in the car was Angelo LaPietra?
18 A. No, sir. I've never discussed that
19 with anybody else.
20 Q. You didn't know Angelo LaPietra
21 personally, did you?
22 A. I knew who he was. I knew him to see
23 him, but I never spoke to him other than to say
24 hello, other than to say hi.
1088
1 Q. Again, I want to know how did you know
2 it was Angelo LaPietra's automobile?
3 A. Because the people I was with, I'd be
4 there with Dirge, I'd be there with Frank, I'd be
5 there with Larry or somebody else, I mean, these
6 people all knew him.
7 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who?
9 MR. BOSTWICK: Frank who?
10 THE WITNESS: Dirge's brother, Frank
11 Imperato.
12 BY MR. CARMELL:
13 Q. And these people would say, and I'm
14 just coining a phrase, there goes Angie in his
15 car or there goes Angelo or Hook's car?
16 A. Well, I mean, they never talked about
17 him with any kind of disrespect, those people.
18 They would wave sometimes, he would wave back
19 sometimes. Sometimes they would just go by and
20 we -- I might make some comments about it. I
21 would make silly comments about the entourage or
22 I wonder about who is in trouble today or things
23 like that, but these people would never joke
24 about that.
1089
1 Q. And the car that you say Mr. LaPietra
2 was in would drive by the Redwood, is that
3 correct?
4 A. Going through the neighborhood, yes,
5 sir.
6 Q. I want to talk about the
7 Italian-American Club. When did you become a
8 member of the club?
9 A. It was probably around 19 -- about
10 1980, somewhere around there, '80, '81.
11 Q. And how long did you remain a member?
12 A. I paid dues one time and never paid a
13 second time. I paid dues one time and I got
14 stuck with some tickets, a lot during that
15 period, every time they had one of their
16 so-called benefits, I was stuck with a whole
17 bunch of tickets and I wound up eating them, I
18 wound up buying all of them, so I was there for,
19 I'd say, for one season, one year, whatever it
20 might be, but I never paid a second time.
21 Q. And the tickets that you purchased,
22 how many -- what was the dollar value of those?
23 What did you have to pay?
24 A. $100, $150. They would just give me a
1090
1 certain amount of tickets and just say -- you
2 know, and they expected you to sell them. You
3 were expected to sell them. I mean, everybody
4 would be selling these things, so there was no
5 way you were going to sell them. I wound up just
6 giving them the money.
7 Q. Where was the Italian-American Social
8 Club located when you were a member?
9 A. The first time when I went, I believe
10 they had actually two places, there was one place
11 a little bit south, a little bit south of where
12 the Redwood was, on one of the north-south
13 streets, but then they also had, the main place
14 was over on 26th Street.
15 Q. Did the main place come in after the
16 little one was closed?
17 A. I remember being at both of those.
18 And, again, I can't specifically say whether they
19 were both open at the same time. But initially I
20 believe I went to a club that was a little bit
21 south of where the Redwood was. And I tried to
22 think of this when I talked to him a couple weeks
23 ago and it just doesn't register what the exact
24 street was. But I remember then going to a place
1091
1 on 26th Street because I remember, again, the
2 first time I walked in there I was wearing a suit
3 and a tie and I came in in the daytime and there
4 was also somebody there at the door that was not
5 very friendly to me, apparently didn't know me or
6 recognize me in a suit and tie and a hat, and was
7 kind of crude until somebody said, oh, that's
8 Bobby, that's Bobby, let him in, and I walked in
9 then.
10 Q. Do you know the year that the July 4th
11 party occurred that you have testified to?
12 A. No, sir, I don't know. I believe
13 there were a couple of them. I know there
14 was -- I know there was one. For some reason,
15 I'm thinking there was a couple. There was a
16 couple of those 4th of July parties. I remember
17 being at one in particular.
18 Q. If I told you that the
19 Italian-American Club had approximately 800
20 members, would that surprise you?
21 A. No.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: This is currently?
23 MR. CARMELL: Had.
24 BY MR. CARMELL:
1092
1 Q. At the time that you were --
2 A. No, that wouldn't surprise me. I had
3 no idea how many people were paying.
4 Q. And on the July 4th party, at least
5 the one that you testified to, it was a very
6 large street party, as you referred to it, a huge
7 street party, isn't it?
8 A. Oh, that's correct. There were a
9 lot -- we all had to sell tickets for that. We
10 all had X amount of tickets to sell. It wasn't a
11 freebee event, and there were, I mean, you're
12 talking about a lot of people.
13 Q. There were families there, women,
14 children, et cetera, weren't there not?
15 A. Yes, sir, there were.
16 Q. And you referred to the club as Angelo
17 LaPietra's club. Do you remember that?
18 A. He was the main boss of the area. It
19 was his territory.
20 Q. Did you know that Angelo LaPietra had
21 founded the Italian American Club?
22 A. That certainly wouldn't surprise me.
23 That would not surprise me at all.
24 Q. And during the time that this huge
1093
1 street party was going on, you went over to say
2 hello to Angelo LaPietra?
3 A. I said hello certainly when I came
4 in.
5 Q. Did you see women and children going
6 over there to say hello to Angelo LaPietra?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. In fact, lots and lots and lots of
9 people went over to say hello to Angelo LaPietra,
10 is that correct?
11 A. Just about everyone that came in, yes,
12 sir.
13 Q. All right. Coming to the end.
14 When you decided to go to the FBI, you
15 had gambling debts of over $200,000, is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes, sir, I did.
18 Q. And the government gave you
19 approximately $72,000 to pay down the gambling
20 debt, is that correct?
21 A. Well, the government insisted on doing
22 that. I didn't have to pay the gambling debts at
23 all. That was their idea. I was told not to pay
24 the people.
1094
1 Q. You felt that you could just keep that
2 gambling debt out there of $200,000?
3 A. No. I had gone -- before I came to
4 the FBI, before I came in, I went to see Johnny
5 DiFronzo who at that time was probably one of the
6 acting bosses in the Chicago area. I went to see
7 him and he took care of it for me. He contacted
8 the people and told them I would pay them when I
9 was ready to pay them.
10 I went to see him again after I came
11 to the FBI and I told him -- I wore a wire when I
12 saw him the next time because they didn't believe
13 that I could go see him to get this thing taken
14 care of, so I went and talked to him on tape
15 where he again indicated to me that I told you
16 not to pay one person in particular. Why do you
17 want to pay him? I didn't have to pay those
18 people if I didn't want to.
19 Q. According to the questions from
20 Mr. Bostwick, you decided to go and cooperate
21 with the government because you wanted to put an
22 end to -- because you thought it was the right
23 thing to do, is that right?
24 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
1095
1 Q. You had once broken away from these
2 organized crime people when you went out to
3 Senator Lemke's office, isn't that correct?
4 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
5 Q. That didn't last very long, did it?
6 A. Oh, it lasted for a long time.
7 Q. About a year, six months to a year if
8 I remember your testimony?
9 A. It lasted for quite a while until Pat
10 Marcy got in touch with me and told me I had to
11 fix the Collela case and I just didn't want to do
12 that, but I did do it.
13 Q. Let me try and fix the time frame.
14 What was the period of time in which you would
15 say you were not involved with organized crime?
16 A. Well, when I say I am not --
17 Q. Other than representing people who
18 might be in a gambling case?
19 A. I still got some -- even though I
20 didn't get Marco's business for a while, I still
21 began -- I still was getting some business from
22 other areas, from other people that there is no
23 question they were involved in organized crime,
24 but these were like personal friends of mine that
1096
1 would send me the business on their own, but
2 there was a period of probably a couple of years.
3 Q. Let me ask you about involved with
4 organized crime. It is something I don't quite
5 understand. You testified that a person who was
6 a bookmaker paid a street tax, is that correct?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now, the person who was a bookmaker,
9 was that person automatically involved in
10 organized crime just by being a bookmaker?
11 A. No. It depended on his relationship
12 with the people. There were different ways that
13 you paid. Sometimes you just paid a street tax
14 and sometimes you were partners with them. I
15 mean, Marco explained all of this on our
16 recordings.
17 Q. Let's try again. There were
18 bookmakers who in order to operate their own
19 bookmaking operation paid a street tax?
20 A. Yes, there were a series of those,
21 yes, sir.
22 Q. Did you call those persons being
23 involved in organized crime?
24 A. No. I mean, that alone in itself, no,
1097
1 would not be -- in my opinion would not have them
2 involved with organized crime in the way that I
3 used the term.
4 Q. So that merely by being in gambling,
5 the person would not necessarily be involved in
6 organized crime?
7 A. Not unless they are involved in
8 gambling and also involved in juice loans and
9 also involved in the burglaries and the robberies
10 and the rest of it, no, sir. That itself alone
11 would not be a reason for me to consider somebody
12 involved in organized crime.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me interject a comment
14 here which is that he may be testifying as to his
15 understanding. We also have legal definitions
16 which apply to our process, and I am just doing
17 exactly what Sherman did.
18 MR. CARMELL: I don't know why that has to
19 come in.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Whatever he knows or
21 thinks he thinks.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: That's fine. This is his
23 opinion and he is testifying to it.
24 MR. CARMELL: It was put in obviously
1098
1 because he has used the phrase involved. I am
2 just asking him how he is using that phrase.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think the question
4 is legitimate because they are talking about
5 gambling and how the gamblers are involved and
6 who pays the street tax. It moves up the line,
7 becomes part of it.
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me clarify. I was not
9 objecting to the line of questioning or the
10 response or anything of the sort. I am just
11 interjecting that there are two different
12 situations going on here. There is his opinion
13 and there is also legal definitions and standard
14 in the process.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: We know there are
16 ultimate definitions that float around here
17 called associates which we are always wrestling
18 with and then all of the witnesses talk about he
19 is involved, he is with them and so forth and it
20 is a very legitimate line of questioning.
21 MR. CARMELL: Having only been partially
22 confused by that, give me a moment.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I thought my
24 explanation was very clear.
1099
1 MR. CARMELL: Your explanation is clear.
2 Where I am is what is confused.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sherman, you are right
4 at the point where you have just asked him simply
5 paying the tax doesn't make you a part of OC.
6 MR. CARMELL: I think it was something
7 else. I know what the simply is.
8 And on that high note, I have no
9 further questions.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I have a short redirect. I
11 don't think we need to break now unless
12 anybody --
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Go right ahead.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Mr. Cooley, in response to
17 Mr. Carmell's questioning, you mentioned an
18 incident where you disassociated with Marco
19 D'Amico as a result of a death threat. Do you
20 recall that testimony?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Do you recall the time period of that
23 disassociation?
24 A. Well, again, it was during the Frank
1100
1 Renella case. They had just killed somebody who
2 had wore a wire against them and Frank Renella
3 was prosecuted for that case along with Donny
4 Scaliese and Nick Boulahanis, so it was -- it
5 happened when they -- when I was on trial with
6 Frank Renella. I am not sure what the exact year
7 was, but that was the exact date.
8 Q. Did you ultimately reestablish contact
9 with Marco D'Amico?
10 A. Well, after about six months to a
11 year, I would see him on occasion at certain
12 places and it wasn't until I came to work for the
13 government that I reestablished my -- then I did
14 go out and reestablish my relationship with him
15 and I was kind of surprised they would deal with
16 me as freely as they did after having not been
17 with them for a period of time especially under
18 the circumstances that I left them.
19 Q. And you were asked also about a -- to
20 clarify some of your understandings about this
21 dice game on the 26th Street area. Do you recall
22 that testimony?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. You testified that there were four or
1101
1 five people that you would see I believe it was
2 Frank Caruso hanging around with during that dice
3 game. Do you recall the names of any of those
4 individuals?
5 A. Well, Richie would be there on
6 occasion, Larry --
7 Q. Richie Catazone?
8 A. Larry would be there every time.
9 Larry made it clear that he ran the game for
10 these people and that he was in charge.
11 Q. Larry Pusiteri told you that?
12 A. Yes, sir. On many occasions, yes,
13 sir.
14 Q. Did you ever see -- well, strike
15 that.
16 Mr. Carmell also asked you a series of
17 questions about Counselor's Row and it is true
18 that there were a lot of legitimate people in
19 that restaurant discussing -- or having
20 legitimate conversations, having nothing to do
21 with organized crime, is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
23 Q. And lots of those individuals said hi
24 or spoke either at length or briefly with Pat
1102
1 Marcy, is that correct?
2 A. Well, at the table, yes, sir.
3 Q. In fact, hundreds of people, hundreds
4 of those conversations I believe you testified
5 occurred every day?
6 A. I mean, maybe hundreds is
7 exaggerating, but there were a lot. It was a
8 constant -- there were people especially during
9 the lunch hour. I mean, a lot of people would
10 come by and say hi and just reach over or
11 whatever and others that were sitting there. I
12 mean, most every day there was some business
13 going on there at the table.
14 Q. You have used the phrase dirty
15 conversations or dirty discussions. Did you use
16 that phrase at the time?
17 A. I don't understand the question.
18 Q. In other words, dirty conversations to
19 indicate conversations relating to organized
20 crime or fixing cases or the like?
21 A. Anything illegal. If we were going to
22 discuss anything illegal or anything we wouldn't
23 want picked up on tape, anything we wouldn't want
24 to be overheard, we would not talk at the table.
1103
1 Q. Did you clearly understand from
2 discussions with Pat Marcy, John D'Arco, Senior,
3 Judge Costillo --
4 A. Scotillo.
5 Q. -- Scotillo and others that there was
6 a procedure for discussing this illegal business?
7 A. Oh, absolutely. That's just the way
8 it always was.
9 Q. And of those types of conversations,
10 conversations that were conducted in a certain
11 manner where Pat Marcy got up away from the
12 table, went to the hall, et cetera, in a private
13 conversation, you testified that there were only
14 a few of those conversations, either zero, one,
15 two, or three or so during a given day, is that
16 correct?
17 A. That's correct, yes, sir. I mean,
18 some days none, but it was a regular experience.
19 It was not at all unusual.
20 Q. And it was those types of
21 conversations conducted in that type of way that
22 you indicated that you saw Bruno Caruso and Leo
23 Caruso involved with Pat Marcy, is that correct?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1104
1 Q. You testified also in response to
2 Mr. Carmell's questions that you didn't know
3 specifically what Bruno Caruso, for example, did
4 specifically for organized crime, is that
5 correct?
6 A. I still don't. I still don't know to
7 this day.
8 MR. CARMELL: I don't think that was the
9 question. I asked what he did with the union.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, I am sorry.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think he asked him
12 do you know what he did with the union or if he
13 was with the union and I don't think he knew
14 either.
15 BY THE WITNESS:
16 A. I still don't know what they do with
17 the union.
18 MR. CARMELL: That was his answer then.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. Did you have a clear understanding
21 that Bruno Caruso was associated with the 26th
22 Street Crew?
23 A. I was aware of this for a long period
24 of time, yes, sir.
1105
1 Q. Is this understanding based in part on
2 your viewing of Bruno Caruso riding with Angelo
3 LaPietra?
4 A. It was based upon, you know, upon
5 everything I saw, everything I did, the people I
6 talked to.
7 Q. Over a course of years?
8 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's all of the questions
10 that I have.
11 MR. CARMELL: Nothing.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: If we can take maybe a
14 15-minute break or so and then put on the next
15 witness or do we want to --
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Sure. We will put the
17 next witness on and --
18 MR. CARMELL: Who is our next witness?
19 MR. BOSTWICK: Our next witness is Guy
20 Bills, Charles Francis Bills known as Guy Bills.
21 MR. CARMELL: Do you have -- are there any
22 documents that were part of our exhibits that
23 referred to Guy Bills?
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, and at the break why
1106
1 don't we discuss those.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Sir, thank you
3 very much, and we are done with you and you are
4 free.
5 (Witness excused.)
6 (WHEREUPON, a recess was had.)
7 (WHEREUPON, Mr. Joseph E. Griffin
8 entered the arbitration
9 proceedings.)
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, we're back
11 on the record and I see you have brought a new
12 witness in and we'll have him sworn. I'm the
13 Independent Hearing Officer, sir.
14 Okay. Miss Reporter, would you
15 administer the oath.
16 (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
17 sworn.)
18 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS,
19 called as a witness herein, having been first
20 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
24 Q. Good late morning, I guess it is.
1107
1 Sir, could you give us your given name.
2 A. Charles Francis Bills.
3 Q. Were you known by any other names?
4 A. Guy.
5 Q. What is your age?
6 A. 56.
7 Q. Is Guy Bills or Charles Francis Bills
8 the name you currently go by?
9 A. No, it's not.
10 Q. Why is that?
11 A. I was in the Witness Protection
12 Program and they changed it.
13 Q. Have you provided testimony in federal
14 criminal trials?
15 A. Yes, I have.
16 Q. Approximately how many?
17 A. Twice.
18 Q. Who were the defendants in those
19 cases?
20 A. Albert Tocco and Frank Calabrese.
21 Q. So Albert Tocco and Clarence Crockett,
22 were they one trial?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Tell us a little bit about that case,
1108
1 the Al Tocco and Clarence Crockett indictment.
2 A. It was about paying, junk yards paying
3 taxes and myself collecting taxes in a stolen car
4 operation.
5 Q. When you say taxes, do you mean street
6 taxes?
7 A. Street taxes, yes, I do.
8 Q. Is this for organized crime in
9 Chicago?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. How about the Calabrese case you
12 referred to, was Mr. Calabrese -- well, in fact,
13 weren't there two Calabreses?
14 A. Yes, there was.
15 Q. Frank, Sr. and a Jr.?
16 A. Yes, but the only one I knew was
17 Frank, Sr.
18 Q. I see. Were there other defendants in
19 that trial as well?
20 A. There were numerous defendants.
21 Q. What was the general subject matter of
22 that trial?
23 A. About juice loans.
24 Q. Okay. Juice loans relating to
1109
1 organized crime?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Here in the City of Chicago?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Have you also provided information
6 regarding organized crime in the City of Chicago
7 to the FBI?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Have you agreed in the past to meet
10 with individuals associated with organized crime
11 to further FBI investigations?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. Have some of these meetings been tape
14 recorded?
15 A. Yes, they were.
16 Q. Mr. Bills, have you heard of the term
17 Chicago Outfit?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. How would you describe that term?
20 A. They run anything that's illegal in
21 Chicago.
22 Q. They meaning the Chicago Outfit?
23 A. The Chicago Outfit.
24 Q. What about the term crew or street
1110
1 crew?
2 A. There's different crews throughout the
3 city.
4 Q. What is the function of crews or
5 street crews?
6 A. They enforce anything that's illegal,
7 that anybody is in business, that they collect
8 the money or they put them out of business.
9 Q. Were you associated during a period of
10 time with either the Chicago Outfit or one of
11 these street crews?
12 A. Yes, I was.
13 Q. During what period of time? You can
14 give me an approximation.
15 A. '77 to the early '80s.
16 Q. And what crew was that?
17 A. With Angelo LaPietra and Albert Tocco.
18 Q. Angelo LaPietra, is that individual --
19 what crew is he a part of?
20 A. 26th Street Crew. He's the boss.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. We are talking
22 about the same -- I know we're talking about the
23 same individual, even though they might have
24 different pronunciations. I always knew of him
1111
1 as Angelo LaPietra. How about you, Mr. Bills?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I just pronounce
3 it wrong.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. And Al Tocco that you mentioned -- I'm
7 sorry. Did you mention Al Tocco?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. What crew was he the head of?
10 A. Chicago Heights. He was the under
11 boss.
12 Q. Whose the boss of that crew?
13 A. Al Pilotto.
14 Q. Were you involved in juice loans in
15 any way?
16 A. Yes, I was.
17 Q. Could you define the term juice
18 loans? What does that mean?
19 A. If you can't get a loan anywhere, then
20 you would go to a juice loan operator, who would
21 loan you $1,000 and you would pay back 10 percent
22 a week.
23 Q. Did the amounts that you paid back per
24 week vary at times?
1112
1 A. No, they don't. You're supposed to
2 pay 10 percent a week.
3 Q. What specifically did you do with
4 respect to juice loans?
5 A. I loaned the money on the street.
6 Q. For what organization?
7 A. Angelo LaPietra.
8 Q. Over what period of time?
9 A. For about a year and a half, I think.
10 I'm not sure on the time.
11 Q. Is this that same time period, late
12 '70s, early '80s?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you ever have any involvement in
15 juice loans with the other crew that you
16 mentioned, Al Tocco or Al Pilotto's crew?
17 A. No, sir, I didn't.
18 Q. Were you ever involved in the
19 collection or payment of street tax for the
20 Outfit?
21 A. Yes, I was.
22 Q. Okay. Can you define for us briefly
23 what you understand the term street tax to mean?
24 A. Anybody who is doing anything illegal
1113
1 pays a tax to the Chicago Outfit.
2 Q. And what is the purpose of that tax?
3 A. So you don't get hurt or killed.
4 Q. Did you ever collect street tax?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. For who?
7 A. For Angelo LaPietra's crew and Albert
8 Tocco's crew.
9 Q. Is this during that same time period,
10 late '70s and early '80s?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Mr. -- well, who did you give that
13 money to?
14 A. Ronald Jarrett or Albert Tocco.
15 Q. Tell us about how a collection of
16 street tax works. What types of people did you
17 collect street tax from?
18 A. Car thieves, chop shop operators, and
19 gamblers.
20 Q. And you would collect, what, a set
21 amount during a set period of time?
22 A. Once a month.
23 Q. Approximately how much would you
24 collect? Did it depend on the business that they
1114
1 were doing, the criminal business?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Who set that amount?
4 A. Frank Calabrese.
5 Q. For the one crew?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And which crew was that?
8 A. Angelo LaPietra's crew.
9 Q. When you collected it, who did you
10 then give it to?
11 A. Ronald Jarrett.
12 Q. Who is Ronald Jarrett?
13 A. He works under Frankie Calabrese for
14 Angelo LaPietra.
15 Q. And that's during the same period of
16 time, the '70s and early '80s, late '70s and
17 early '80s?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Mr. Bills, you mentioned chop shop
20 operations. Were you ever involved in chop shop
21 operations?
22 A. Yes, sir, I was.
23 Q. Could you tell us what a chop shop
24 operation is?
1115
1 A. That's where you chop a car up for the
2 parts and resell it.
3 Q. What role did you play in chop shop
4 operations?
5 A. I had my own chop shop. I stold cars
6 for the chop shop and I had a junk yard at one
7 time.
8 Q. Approximately what time periods are
9 these events taking place?
10 A. In that same amount of time that I
11 gave you already.
12 Q. Did you pay a street tax to operate a
13 chop shop?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And who did you pay that street tax
16 to?
17 A. Ronald Jarrett and Frank Calabrese.
18 Q. Over what period of time did you do
19 that?
20 A. For about a year.
21 Q. Is that late '70s, early '80s?
22 A. That would be in the late '70s.
23 Q. Mr. Bills, have you ever been
24 convicted of a federal crime?
1116
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Were you convicted of interstate
3 shipment of stolen goods in the early '70s?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. Could you tell us briefly what that
6 related to?
7 A. From a trailer, we stold a trailer and
8 we sold the stuff.
9 Q. What type of stuff?
10 A. Radios and clothing.
11 Q. Did you commit burglaries over time?
12 A. Yes, I have.
13 Q. A number of them?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. With a number of different people?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was this
18 conviction for stolen goods?
19 THE WITNESS: Interstate theft.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Where was it?
21 THE WITNESS: Chicago. I went to trial in
22 the federal building.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who prosecuted you?
24 THE WITNESS: Geeze, I can't remember the
1117
1 guy's --
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: I wasn't the
3 prosecutor on that case, was I?
4 THE WITNESS: No, you were not.
5 MR. CARMELL: Do you know what year it was?
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. Do you know the approximate year? He
8 said sometime in the early '70s, I believe.
9 A. '71, '72 maybe. The guy later went
10 on -- the guy who prosecuted me, later went on, I
11 believe, that union official that got killed.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: That would be Matt
13 Lyden prosecuted you?
14 THE WITNESS: No, Matt Lyden wasn't on the
15 case. I know who Matt Lyden is. This guy was
16 stocky.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: And prosecuted the
18 union official later?
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but away from here. The
20 union official they killed wasn't from here.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I prosecuted a lot of
22 ITSB cases during that time, the early '70s, and
23 I thought I or one of my men might have done
24 that, but I don't think so.
1118
1 THE WITNESS: I don't think so.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Were you also convicted of stolen --
4 taking stolen cars over state lines?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Approximately when was that?
7 A. The indictment was after I was in
8 jail.
9 Q. On that first matter?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. I see. So what happened to that case?
12 A. I was given, Judge Marovich give me, I
13 believe, four years to run concurrent with the
14 time that I already had.
15 Q. So you didn't go to trial on that
16 matter?
17 A. I pleaded guilty.
18 Q. And the last matter, were you
19 convicted of a RICO conviction in the mid to late
20 '80s?
21 A. Yes, I pled guilty on that.
22 Q. And what did that relate to, what type
23 of activity?
24 A. Selling stolen parts across the state
1119
1 line.
2 Q. Did it also relate to chop shop
3 activity?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. Where did you grow up, Mr. Bills?
6 A. On the -- I lived on the south side
7 for a while, around 74th and Emerald, and I lived
8 in Bridgeport for about five or six years.
9 Q. Is this in the 26th Street area of
10 Chicago?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. Who is your father?
13 A. Charles "Duckie" Bills. That was his
14 nickname, Duckie.
15 Q. Was your father involved in any
16 criminal activity?
17 A. Bookmaker.
18 Q. How do you know that?
19 A. I worked in his office.
20 Q. During what period of time -- when you
21 say his office, I take it you mean -- let me
22 strike that first question and say when you
23 worked in his office, I take it you mean his
24 bookmaking office?
1120
1 A. Yes, which would be called the wire
2 room.
3 Q. During what period of time did you
4 work in his bookmaking operation?
5 A. In the early '60s.
6 Q. Was this bookmaking involved with the
7 26th Street Crew in any way?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. What types of bets did your father
10 take?
11 A. He took bets on the horses and later
12 football.
13 Q. Did your father know people in
14 leadership positions of the Outfit?
15 A. Yes, he did.
16 Q. In the 26th Street Crew?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. Who were some of his closest
19 associates in those groups?
20 MR. CARMELL: I'm going to object to it. It
21 requires him to speculate who his father believed
22 were members.
23 MR. BOSTWICK: Well, let me ask you on --
24 MR. CARMELL: That's the way the question is
1121
1 written.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Did you have discussions with your
4 father about people in the Outfit?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Did you have discussions with your
7 father about people in the 26th Street crew?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Did you meet some of these people?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Did you have discussions with them
12 specifically about their involvement?
13 A. Later on, I did.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Why don't you
15 establish who he met and then we'll figure out
16 who they are.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Did you meet an individual named Gus
19 Alex?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And who is Gus Alex?
22 A. He was the boss of the Chicago Loop.
23 Q. How did you meet Mr. Alex?
24 A. Through my father.
1122
1 Q. Did you know a Sam Alex?
2 A. That was his brother.
3 Q. What position, if any, did Mr. Sam
4 Alex hold in the Chicago Outfit?
5 A. From what I heard, he was a killer and
6 a big boss.
7 Q. Who did you hear that from?
8 A. From my father and other people.
9 Q. Did he have any relationship or family
10 ties to your father?
11 A. He was married to my aunt.
12 Q. This is Sam Alex?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. So Sam Alex and Gus Alex were
15 relatives, in effect, of yours?
16 A. Sam Alex was. I don't think Gus was
17 because he married my aunt. I don't know if that
18 would be a relation or not.
19 Q. I guess it depends on how far one
20 extends the family tree.
21 Did you discuss these individuals, Gus
22 Alex and Sam Alex, and their position in the
23 Outfit with your father?
24 A. Yes, I did.
1123
1 Q. During what period of time?
2 A. Since I was about 13.
3 Q. Did they ever come to your home?
4 A. Yes, they have.
5 Q. Did you see them on other occasions?
6 A. Yes, sir, I have.
7 Q. In and around the neighborhood?
8 A. At wakes, weddings.
9 Q. Did you see people in the 26th Street
10 area interact with these people?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. How were they treated by -- Sam Alex
13 and Gus Alex, how were they treated in the 26th
14 Street area?
15 A. Very respectfully.
16 Q. Were you and your father treated any
17 differently because of a family relationship with
18 Gus and Sam Alex?
19 A. We were treated a little better than
20 the average person, yeah.
21 Q. Let me show you a couple of photos
22 here, and ask you to look. This binder,
23 Mr. Bills, is marked as Exhibit 6, and then there
24 are tabs in the exhibits. I'm going to ask you
1124
1 to look at 6-B and 6-D, if you would, please.
2 First of all, 6B, the person behind
3 the tab?
4 MR. CARMELL: Is that B as in boy?
5 MR. BOSTWICK: B as in boy, yeah.
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. You go behind Tab B. Who is that
8 individual?
9 A. Gus Alex.
10 Q. Go behind Tab D. Could you tell me
11 who that individual is?
12 A. Frank "Skid" Caruso.
13 Q. How do you know who Frank "Skids"
14 Caruso is?
15 A. I know him since I was a young kid.
16 Q. Did he have any relationship with your
17 father?
18 A. Yes, he did.
19 Q. What was the nature of that
20 relationship?
21 A. They were friends.
22 Q. Was -- did Frank Skids Caruso have any
23 involvement in your father's bookmaking
24 operation?
1125
1 A. Yes, he did.
2 Q. And what was the nature of that
3 involvement?
4 A. They had to call all of the bets in
5 Skid Caruso's office.
6 Q. Who did; your father?
7 A. Yes, they did.
8 Q. Why was that?
9 A. Because they were 50/50 partners.
10 Q. Can you describe in a little more
11 detail how that partnership between Frank Skids
12 Caruso and your father worked with respect to the
13 bookmaking and in the Chicago Chinatown area?
14 A. They would call in all of the bets
15 that they had during the day to Skids' office and
16 winnings or losing would be 50 percent either
17 way.
18 Q. Do you remember an individual named
19 Tony Bova?
20 A. Yes. He was working in Skids' office.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you spell that
22 name?
23 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
24 Q. Do you know?
1126
1 A. B-o-v-a, I believe.
2 Q. What role did Mr. Bova play in Frank
3 Skids Caruso's office?
4 A. He ran the sports office for Skid.
5 Q. When you say office, again, you are
6 referring to the illegal bookmaking operation?
7 A. Right. Anybody who was booking in
8 that neighborhood would have to call their bets
9 into that office or they couldn't book.
10 Q. What would happen if they didn't?
11 What was your understanding?
12 A. They would get hurt or they would pay
13 the money.
14 Q. Did you see Frank Skids Caruso with
15 your father on occasion?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. A number of occasions?
18 A. A lot of times.
19 Q. Have you talked with -- to your father
20 about Frank Skids Caruso?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. With other individuals in the
23 neighborhood?
24 A. With other individuals in the
1127
1 neighborhood, no. He talked about Skid, but I
2 have heard it from other people.
3 Q. I am sorry. Have you talked about
4 Frank Skids Caruso with other people in the
5 neighborhood as well?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. What did you understand Frank Skids
8 Caruso's position in the 26th Street Crew to be?
9 A. He was a boss.
10 Q. And what period of time was this?
11 A. Until he died.
12 Q. Do you know approximately when that
13 was?
14 A. No, I don't know.
15 Q. But does this period cover the '60s
16 and '70s or at least a portion of those periods?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Look at 6A, picture
19 6A.
20 MR. BOSTWICK: 6A?
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes. The very
22 beginning.
23 Do you see Gus Alex in there?
24 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
1128
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Let me show you -- have you take a
3 look at Exhibit 6M, behind the Tab 6M. Do you
4 recognize that individual?
5 A. Angelo LaPietra.
6 Q. Were you aware from discussions with
7 your father and others what his position in the
8 Outfit was?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And what position was that?
11 A. He was a boss. He became boss of the
12 whole 26th Street area to 31st Street.
13 Q. Approximately what time period?
14 A. Whenever he moved into the
15 neighborhood and built his house. I don't know
16 what time frame that is.
17 Q. Was there a period of time when
18 Mr. LaPietra was forced to leave the 26th Street
19 area?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Approximately when was that?
22 A. I can't -- when my father got shot.
23 Q. Can you tell us did Mr. LaPietra's
24 having to leave the neighborhood have something
1129
1 to do with your father's being shot?
2 A. Yes, it did.
3 Q. Can you tell us about what happened?
4 A. My father was shot through the door of
5 the house.
6 Q. How old were you?
7 A. Young. I am trying to think.
8 Q. Early teenage years or younger?
9 A. Maybe just a teenager.
10 Q. Did you witness the shooting?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. Did you go to the hospital with your
13 family after the shooting?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. How soon following the shooting?
16 A. A couple of days, I believe. I am not
17 sure on the time frame.
18 Q. Did you see your father in the
19 hospital?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Did -- was anybody else present?
22 A. There was a lot of guys standing
23 around.
24 Q. Who was there?
1130
1 A. Jimmy Catura, my uncle.
2 Q. That would be Sam Alex?
3 A. No, no. My other uncle, Gurgone,
4 G-u-r-g-o-n-e. Sam I believe is his first name.
5 He had a nickname.
6 Q. Was -- do you recall whether Sam or
7 Gus Alex were in the room?
8 A. Gus Alex came there.
9 Q. Could you describe what was said as
10 you recall it?
11 A. There was another gentleman there who
12 I don't know, I can't remember his name, and one
13 of my uncles and they were wanting revenge for
14 what happened to my father, and Gus Alex says,
15 don't worry about it. I'll take care of
16 everything. Everybody better hope this Irishman
17 lives.
18 Q. Did you become aware through
19 subsequent -- well, did you become aware that
20 Mr. LaPietra left the neighborhood after that
21 period of time?
22 A. Yes. Years later.
23 Q. Years later he left?
24 A. I found out years afterwards.
1131
1 Q. How did you find that out?
2 A. Oh, maybe about 10 or 15 people
3 besides my father told me. Jimmy Catura told me.
4 Q. Did you father also have discussions
5 about that incident with you?
6 A. Yes, he told me about it.
7 Q. What did he tell you about whether
8 there was a connection between him being shot and
9 Mr. LaPietra leaving the area?
10 A. He believed that Angelo was involved
11 and that's -- because of Gus he had to leave the
12 neighborhood.
13 Q. Because of Gus Alex?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. Mr. Bills, I think if you can, you
16 need to describe a little bit about what the 26th
17 Street area was like growing up. Are there ties
18 to organized crime in the 26th Street area? Are
19 those ties pervasive?
20 A. There are a lot of ties in that
21 neighborhood. You have got the First Ward who
22 was real connected with the Outfit and --
23 Q. Who specifically in the First Ward?
24 A. The Carusos, the Rotis and anybody who
1132
1 lived in that neighborhood, if they weren't -- I
2 don't say anybody because there are good people,
3 but if say a police car pulled up, if they
4 weren't involved in organized crime, the people
5 in the neighborhood would call up somebody and
6 tell them that there was a car there, there was a
7 police car spying on somebody or looking at
8 something.
9 Q. From your experience in organized
10 crime, was that a difficult area to be surveilled
11 in?
12 A. Real difficult.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Is that First Ward
14 essentially an Italian neighborhood?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
16 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
17 Q. Is it --
18 A. Italian and Irish. There is a lot of
19 Irish there too.
20 Q. Was it important to you growing up to
21 understand who the leadership of the Outfit in
22 the area was?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Why was that?
1133
1 A. I was very interested in it.
2 Q. Was it dangerous to be involved in any
3 criminal activity and not know who the people in
4 the leadership were?
5 A. You would be in a lot of trouble if
6 you did something wrong in the neighborhood.
7 Q. Can you give me an example of an
8 incident where somebody got in a lot of trouble
9 because they showed disrespect to someone with a
10 position in the Outfit?
11 A. One of Skid Caruso's brother, I
12 believe it was -- I can't think of his name right
13 now, but had had an argument with a young kid
14 named Jack Valenti.
15 Q. Could you spell that name?
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Give us a rough time,
17 roughly the age, okay.
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. '63 or '4.
20 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
21 Q. And I'd ask you to spell that name for
22 the court reporter if you can. Take a stab at
23 it.
24 A. V-a-l-e-n-t-i. And he had slapped one
1134
1 of Mr. Caruso's brothers, Skids' brothers.
2 Q. How old was Mr. Valenti at the time?
3 A. In his twenties, I believe, his early
4 twenties.
5 Q. How old were you?
6 A. I was a couple of years younger.
7 Q. Okay. What happened after that
8 incident?
9 A. Later on he got killed.
10 Q. Did you discuss these types of things
11 with your father?
12 A. With my father and other people.
13 Q. With your contemporaries?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. What types of message -- what type of
16 message did you take from that incident?
17 A. Everybody in the neighborhood took it
18 for a message that you didn't do what he did.
19 Q. How were top bosses like Gus Alex and
20 Skids Caruso treated?
21 A. Like they were kings.
22 Q. Where did you witness this type of
23 treatment?
24 A. At wakes and weddings, restaurants.
1135
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: How would that take
2 place? There would be a wedding or wake and in
3 comes one of the people you are talking about?
4 THE WITNESS: The whole room will become
5 silent and people wouldn't talk. Nobody would
6 just walk up to their table, okay. If you were
7 in a lounge and they walked in, like Albert Tocco
8 walked in on the south side at 103rd Street, I
9 believe he was a Congressman from out there,
10 Italian Congressman who lost his seat.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Redistrict?
12 THE WITNESS: They redistricted. I can't
13 think of his name. Black hair. He -- I mean, he
14 was like kissing Al Tocco on the cheek, it is so
15 good to see you. That's the kind of adoration
16 these guys got.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Let me refer you to another tab. This
19 is behind 6F, and I will do it for you so we can
20 make sure we are on the same one here.
21 Do you recognize the individual in
22 that 6F?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Who is that?
1136
1 A. Frank Toots Caruso.
2 Q. Did you have a relationship with Frank
3 Toots Caruso?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. What was the relationship with that
6 relationship?
7 A. We bummed around together for a lot of
8 years. I known him since he was a young man.
9 Q. Approximately how old were you when
10 you met Frank Toots Caruso?
11 A. I met him when I was young and he was
12 young, but through the years I have known him for
13 a long time.
14 Q. In your teenage years and early
15 twenties, did you --
16 A. Toots is younger than me. Toots I
17 believe is a couple of years behind me, but I
18 knew him, you know, from different gatherings
19 that we went to.
20 Q. What types of things did you do with
21 him?
22 A. Went out drinking, played pool,
23 burglaries.
24 Q. How often did you drink with
1137
1 Mr. Caruso, for example?
2 A. There was a time when I was with him
3 for a couple of years, almost every other day.
4 Q. What period of time was this
5 approximately?
6 A. In the middle '60s, I believe.
7 Q. Did you frequent any specific bars?
8 A. Toots was under age, but he could get
9 in the bars in Chinatown. They would serve Toots
10 anything he wanted. We also frequented the
11 Dragon Cue Pool Hall on 22nd Street. Toots could
12 also go on Rush Street and drink.
13 Q. When you say he could go on Rush
14 Street and drink, I could go on Rush Street and
15 drink. What do you mean?
16 A. He was under age, but because of who
17 he was, he got in.
18 Q. Did you get a sense that Frank Toots
19 Caruso was afforded special treatment at these
20 places?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. Why did you get that impression?
23 A. Because we didn't get a lot -- we
24 didn't get any checks in Chinatown from him when
1138
1 we were with him.
2 Q. You mean you didn't have to pay?
3 A. Didn't have to pay, and on Rush Street
4 the doorman or the managers of the places, they
5 gave him all kinds of respect. For a young guy
6 that's --
7 Q. Can you describe Mr. Caruso, Frank
8 Caruso's personality at all for us?
9 A. He was like a little prince in the
10 neighborhood.
11 Q. Did he have -- did you discuss with
12 him his father's position in the 26th Street
13 Crew?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. What types of things did he tell you?
16 A. That his father was the boss.
17 Q. You mentioned that you committed
18 burglaries with --
19 A. A burglary.
20 Q. A burglary with Frank Caruso. Can you
21 tell us when that occurred?
22 A. I believe it was in 1966.
23 Q. Can you tell us about it? What did
24 you steal?
1139
1 A. There was a dress shop on Wentworth
2 Avenue on the west side of the street. Toots and
3 I and my cousin Sammy burglarized it and took all
4 of the dresses and the blouses and stuff out of
5 the store.
6 Q. What did you do with it?
7 A. We were going to sell them.
8 Q. And what happened?
9 A. The next day Toots called me at home
10 and said it is an emergency. His father said we
11 had to bring all of the stuff back.
12 Q. Why does this -- where did you take
13 it?
14 A. I brought it to Toots and we brought
15 it inside his mother and father's house.
16 Q. Why -- is this -- did you take this as
17 being any different than a parent calling a
18 wayward kid and saying you have to return some
19 stolen goods?
20 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that,
21 what he terms it. He has told what the facts
22 are.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think I'll sustain
24 the objection. Move on.
1140
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. What was your understanding of Skids
3 Caruso's authority over the criminal activity in
4 the 26th Street Crew area -- 26th Street area?
5 A. That he ran it.
6 Q. Could any criminal activity be
7 conducted without his approval?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did Frank Caruso, Frank Toots Caruso
10 discuss with you the fact of his father having
11 any conversations with Gus Alex?
12 A. Yeah. When Gus Alex used to call the
13 house, he used to disguise his voice so nobody
14 knew it was -- he talked in a high pitch voice so
15 nobody knew who it was.
16 Q. Toots Caruso told you that?
17 A. Yes, he did.
18 Q. What time period was this?
19 A. In the '60s, late '60s.
20 Q. Did you ever meet an individual named
21 Paul "The Waiter" Ricca?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. When did you meet him?
24 A. In that same time frame. It would be
1141
1 in the '60s. Toots took me to the Pancake House
2 on North Avenue and Harlem. He told me Paul
3 Ricca owned it and Paul Ricca was there.
4 Q. And you met him on that occasion?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Who -- what was your understanding of
7 who Paul "The Waiter" Ricca was?
8 A. He was the boss of the whole thing,
9 the whole Chicago Outfit, I believe.
10 Q. And did -- what was the interaction
11 between Frank "Toots" Caruso and Mr. Ricca?
12 A. He treated Toots like he was a
13 relative.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Describe the meeting
15 for us. You get there, you go to the Pancake
16 House?
17 THE WITNESS: We get in there and Mr. Ricca
18 is sitting down with two other gentlemen. We
19 went to the -- we went and sat down and he
20 recognized Toots, the other two gentlemen left
21 and he called us over to the booth.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What happened then?
23 THE WITNESS: He was asking him how his
24 father was and how his family was and things like
1142
1 that.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
3 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
4 Q. When you were working as a -- as part
5 of a chop shop operation, did Frank Caruso ever
6 come to you with cars for any purpose?
7 A. Yes. I believe he gave me four
8 give-ups.
9 Q. And what is a give-up?
10 A. They can be either somebody wants to
11 get rid of their car because they can't make the
12 payments or they want to collect the insurance
13 money on the car.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who was it brought to,
15 which one, which Caruso brought this to you?
16 THE WITNESS: Toots.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. And is this four separate occasions or
19 one occasion with four cars?
20 A. Four separate occasions.
21 Q. Over what period of time?
22 A. '79 until early '80s.
23 Q. Approximately what -- well, what --
24 did you have discussions with Frank "Toots"
1143
1 Caruso about these cars and what he wanted you to
2 do with them?
3 A. Yeah. He wanted me to crush them or
4 cut them up.
5 Q. What was the purpose of that?
6 A. So afterwards the individual, whoever
7 it was, could report the car stolen to that
8 insurance company and collect their insurance.
9 Q. Did you receive any money for this?
10 A. From Toots?
11 Q. Right.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why did you do it?
14 A. Because he is my friend.
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: And you got the cars?
16 THE WITNESS: And I got the cars. I got to
17 cut the cars up, right. I didn't cut all of them
18 up, Mr. Vaira. Only two.
19 MR. BOSTWICK: You cut two of the cars up?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. I had it done in the
21 shop.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. Let me show you another photograph
24 that's behind the next Tab 6G. Do you recognize
1144
1 that individual?
2 A. Leo Caruso.
3 Q. And what -- does he have a
4 relationship to -- a family relationship to Frank
5 Caruso that you are aware of?
6 A. That's his cousin.
7 MR. CARMELL: Which Frank Caruso?
8 THE WITNESS: Either one would be his
9 cousin.
10 MR. CARMELL: I don't know which one he is
11 talking about.
12 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm sorry. I was saying
13 Frank "Toots" Caruso.
14 MR. CARMELL: I figured that out.
15 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
16 Q. Right. Frank "Toots" Caruso, do you
17 know if he has a family relationship to Frank
18 "Toots" Caruso?
19 A. Cousin.
20 Q. Did you have a relationship with him?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. And what was the nature of that
23 relationship?
24 A. The same kind of relationship I had
1145
1 with Toots.
2 Q. Over what period of time?
3 A. The same period of time.
4 Q. You went out with him drinking?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Did you ever engage in illegal
7 activities with Leo Caruso specifically?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Did you have discussions with Leo
10 Caruso about organized crime matters?
11 A. No, but I knew that he knew, you know,
12 who his uncle was. He was deathly afraid of his
13 uncle.
14 MR. CARMELL: I want to move to strike the
15 last part of the answer. The question was, and
16 he answered it no.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think that's fair.
18 I'll strike that.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. Who was Leo Caruso's uncle?
21 A. Frank "Skids" Caruso.
22 Q. And what was Leo Caruso's impression
23 of Skids Caruso?
24 MR. CARMELL: Well, can he say what Leo
1146
1 said?
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Well, did you ever
3 have a conversation with Leo Caruso about his
4 uncle? If you did, when was it and what did they
5 say?
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. Can you answer those questions,
8 Mr. Bills?
9 A. If Toots was out with us, everybody
10 had to watch Toots, and Leo told me, my uncle
11 will kill everybody if anything happens to Toots
12 or he gets in any kind of trouble, so everybody
13 had to watch that Toots didn't get hurt or he
14 didn't do something, you know.
15 Q. Did you ever get in fights in bars?
16 A. Yes, we did.
17 Q. Did you take that advice seriously in
18 terms of protecting Toots Caruso?
19 A. Very seriously.
20 Q. Did you get in fights on Toots
21 Caruso's behalf?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. What types of places?
24 A. With Toots, it was usually with a
1147
1 girl, either he wanted to take somebody's girl
2 away from him or somebody looked at his girl
3 funny.
4 Q. And then you would intercede, you
5 would break in?
6 A. I would be -- wouldn't be -- sometimes
7 it wasn't always me. But there would be other
8 people. Toots was famous for that.
9 Q. Did you ever attend a dice game in the
10 26th Street area?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. What period of time, approximately?
13 A. In the '60s was the first time.
14 Q. And was there a dice game running in
15 the 26th Street area over a period of years?
16 A. It was common knowledge that for
17 years, the dice game was running on 26th Street.
18 Toots took me the first time that I went there.
19 Q. And can you describe the situation?
20 First of all, were these dice games over a period
21 of years always in the same location?
22 A. Off and on they moved, but most of the
23 time the same location.
24 Q. Can you describe when you went on the
1148
1 first occasion with Frank "Toots" Caruso? First
2 tell us when it was.
3 A. It would be in the later '60s.
4 Q. Okay. Can you describe the situation,
5 where it was located?
6 A. It was located on 22nd Street. When
7 we went there, Leo Caruso was looking out for
8 police and Shorty LaMantia was looking out for
9 police.
10 THE HEARING OFFICER: What do you mean by
11 that?
12 THE WITNESS: That no police were pulling
13 up. One guy sat in the car with a police radio.
14 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
15 Q. So Leo or Shorty were doing that, or
16 both?
17 A. Shorty was inside at the time, Leo was
18 outside. And on different occasions, Shorty was
19 in the car. At another time I went, he was
20 listening to a police radio with a walkie-talkie,
21 and he had a walkie-talkie on the inside, so if
22 they got a call on the radio, they would call
23 inside to stop the game.
24 Q. So on the occasion that you went, this
1149
1 first -- first with Frank "Toots" Caruso, Leo
2 Caruso was out in the car with a police radio?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. What happened next? You were just
5 with Frank "Toots" Caruso only?
6 A. That was it, Frank and I.
7 Q. Describe the situation when you go
8 in.
9 A. It was a room similar to this, and
10 they were playing dice, Larry Pusiteri was
11 running the game, and Shorty was inside earning
12 juice money.
13 Q. Shorty LaMantia?
14 A. LaMantia.
15 Q. How did you know Shorty LaMantia?
16 A. I know Shorty for a long time.
17 Q. What type of relationship did you have
18 with him?
19 A. We drank together. I knew, you know,
20 what position he had. It was common knowledge.
21 Q. What position did he have?
22 A. He worked for Skids.
23 Q. Doing what?
24 A. Almost anything.
1150
1 Q. Well, what were some of the things you
2 knew of him to be involved in?
3 A. Gambling, loaning money, fireworks.
4 Q. Fireworks meaning what?
5 A. They would sell all the fireworks on
6 26th Street and at one time, everybody used to
7 sell fireworks in that neighborhood. Then they
8 stopped everybody from selling fireworks and you
9 could only buy them from Shorty LaMantia.
10 Q. Well, what was -- when you walk in,
11 was anybody at the door?
12 A. Yes, there was.
13 Q. Who was that, do you know?
14 A. There's a guy from 26th Street called
15 Gunner. I don't know his last name. He was
16 working there.
17 Q. And then describe the situation as you
18 go in.
19 A. The dice game was going on.
20 Q. Is it the situation where you open the
21 door and you're in that room?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. And what's in the room?
24 A. They were playing dice around a big
1151
1 table.
2 Q. Do you know any of the individuals
3 that were there?
4 A. Larry Pusiteri, Richie Catazone.
5 Skids was there.
6 Q. Skids Caruso?
7 A. Yeah, because Toots went and got some
8 money off his father. Some other guys from that
9 club. I don't remember right now. I couldn't
10 remember everybody who was in the game.
11 Q. Let's talk about some of those
12 individuals. Larry Pusiteri, who was he?
13 A. He ran sports betting and the dice
14 game for Skids Caruso.
15 Q. Over what period of time?
16 A. From the '60s until he died.
17 Q. Do you know approximately when he
18 died?
19 A. No, but I believe it was maybe in the
20 early '80s. I know he passed away.
21 Q. How about Richie Catazone, you
22 mentioned Richie Catazone, who is he?
23 A. Richie Catazone was involved. Him and
24 Larry were good friends.
1152
1 Q. Him and who?
2 A. Larry Stubich -- Larry Pusiteri. I'm
3 sorry.
4 Q. Do you know anything more about Richie
5 Catazone?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. What position, if any, did he hold in
8 the 26th Street area?
9 A. He acquired a big position when Angelo
10 LaPietra came in the neighborhood.
11 Q. How do you know that?
12 A. I was with Richie and he told me.
13 Q. What did he say?
14 A. That he was with Captain D and Butchie
15 Salvato in gambling.
16 Q. Approximately when did you have this
17 discussion with Richie Catazone?
18 A. '79.
19 Q. And did he tell you who he was
20 gambling for?
21 A. He told me he was working for Angelo
22 LaPietra.
23 Q. You mentioned Captain D, I think. Who
24 is that?
1153
1 A. Donny DiFazio.
2 Q. And did you know Mr. DiFazio?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Did you have discussions with him
5 about individuals associated with the 26th Street
6 Crew?
7 A. Anybody that was around Donny was
8 involved in gambling with him, Butchie Salvato,
9 Larry --
10 Q. Larry Pusiteri?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. How many occasions did you go to this
13 26th Street area?
14 A. Three.
15 Q. Three occasions?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When were the other occasions?
18 A. Maybe in the next year after that a
19 couple times.
20 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Bruno Caruso
21 there?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you know Bruno
24 Caruso?
1154
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
2 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
3 Q. Tell us who Bruno Caruso is.
4 A. Toots' brother.
5 Q. And tell us about the situation where
6 you saw Bruno Caruso.
7 A. The next two times that I went there,
8 I saw Bruno Caruso at the game there.
9 Q. What was he doing?
10 A. Walking around like Skids' son.
11 Q. What do you mean by that comment,
12 anything more than just walking around?
13 A. You knew that he was -- you have to
14 come from that neighborhood, that society, to
15 tell something like that. I mean, he was walking
16 around like a little prince, but Toots was the
17 biggest prince. Okay. That would be the best --
18 I'm Skids' son, you know.
19 Q. Did you see Bruno Caruso with any of
20 these other individuals you've named, Richie
21 Catazone, Larry Pusiteri, Captain D or Richie
22 Catazone?
23 A. I seen him with them all.
24 Q. On that occasion or on other
1155
1 occasions?
2 A. On other occasions and that occasion,
3 I saw him with Shorty LaMantia.
4 Q. And Larry. Tell us about the occasion
5 with Shorty LaMantia, or was it more than one
6 occasion?
7 A. Yeah, it's a lot. For years I saw
8 them together. I mean, they were seeing each
9 other, you'd see them together two, three times a
10 week in the neighborhood, in Chinatown.
11 Q. Mr. Bills, are you aware of any --
12 well, you've spoken a little bit briefly about
13 ties to the 1st ward. Did you ever speak to
14 Toots Caruso about getting an electrical job in
15 the 1970s?
16 A. Yes. Toots told me that Gus Alex got
17 him a job on the city working for the electrical
18 department.
19 Q. Do you know if Gus Alex had any
20 position in the city?
21 A. No, he didn't.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: You said that Toots
23 said that --
24 THE WITNESS: Toots told me that Gus Alex
1156
1 got him on the electrical department. And I
2 asked my father and he also told me the same
3 thing because he was a boss in that department.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. Were you aware later on of Toots
6 Caruso getting a job with a union?
7 A. When I went to meet Toots, he was
8 giving me a car, reached out for me to get rid of
9 a car for him. I drove to the neighborhood and
10 met him and he told me that Angelo was putting
11 him in the union and that he had bought a hot dog
12 stand right on 26th Street.
13 Q. Angelo who?
14 A. LaPietra.
15 Q. Do you know if Angelo LaPietra had any
16 position in any union?
17 A. No, he didn't.
18 Q. Do you know if Angelo -- do you know
19 what union this was or not?
20 A. I believe it was the Laborers' Union.
21 Q. Did --
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: He was also getting a
23 hot dog stand?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1157
1 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
2 Q. Did you know Leo Caruso to hold any
3 position with the city?
4 A. Yeah, he used to sweep the sidewalks
5 on 22nd Street and Wentworth.
6 Q. How do you know that?
7 A. Because if you wanted to play pool or
8 you wanted to meet Leo, you know he had to sweep
9 the street for about 10 or 15 minutes and then
10 he'd go hide his cart and then he was free for
11 the rest of the day until he had to check it in.
12 Q. Did you ever pick Mr. Caruso or drop
13 him off at his city job?
14 A. I picked him up from the city job,
15 when he played pool.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Which Caruso are we
17 talking about here?
18 MR. BOSTWICK: Leo Caruso.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. I'm sorry. Let me ask you that
21 again. Were there occasions where you drove Leo
22 Caruso from his city job?
23 A. I picked him up right on Wentworth
24 Avenue, yes, where he was supposed to be
1158
1 sweeping, yes.
2 Q. And did you understand that during
3 that period of time Mr. Leo Caruso was supposed
4 to be working for the city?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. And what did you do with him?
7 A. We went out and did anything we wanted
8 to, played handball, went to the poolroom.
9 Q. How often did this occur?
10 A. Every day, as far as I know.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: Are we talking about
12 during working hours, between the hours of, let's
13 say, 8 and 4, during the day?
14 THE WITNESS: Right. Leo would bring his
15 cart out for 10 or 15 minutes and shake his broom
16 and then he'd hide his cart.
17 THE HEARING OFFICER: His cart?
18 THE WITNESS: He had a little yellow cart,
19 pushcart.
20 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
21 Q. Do you know if that was -- did you
22 ever have a discussion with Leo about that being
23 a union job?
24 A. No, I didn't. I knew it was.
1159
1 Q. How did you know that?
2 MR. CARMELL: The phrase union job, does
3 that mean you're a member of the union because
4 you work for the city or is it a union officer
5 job? I think there should be some distinction
6 here. We all know that if you come in
7 employment, under certain jurisdictions you
8 become a member of the union. So is he asking
9 whether this is a job under the jurisdiction of
10 the union?
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: I think we established
12 he was working, pushing a cart and sweeping up.
13 And his next question is -- and we believe, he
14 was led to believe that that's a city job. So
15 the next question is is that a job covered by a
16 union. Do you know that?
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Do you know whether or not this was a
19 job covered by a union?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: How do you know that?
22 THE WITNESS: I worked for Streets and
23 Sanitation, and so did my family. Everybody
24 knew, you know, about city jobs. Everybody
1160
1 wanted one.
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Your father worked for
3 the city, too?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, he did.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: You said he was the
6 electrical department?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, the same department as
8 Toots.
9 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
10 Q. Did you have an understanding of how
11 your father got that job?
12 A. Years ago. He never elaborated on
13 that.
14 Q. How did you get your job with Streets
15 and San?
16 A. Through my father.
17 Q. I don't believe we tied up the period
18 of time. You've just testified that on a number
19 of occasions, for quite some time, you were aware
20 that Leo Caruso was not at his job, at this job
21 on regular working hours. What period of time
22 was this?
23 A. It would be in the '60s, but everybody
24 who knew Leo knew all you had to do to find Leo
1161
1 in the morning was, you know, when he was -- he'd
2 be around the corner for a while and then he'd
3 leave. Then he'd be playing handball or going to
4 the park or be at the poolroom.
5 THE HEARING OFFICER: You guys, we've
6 reached, I think, a breaking point where we can
7 take time and we'll come back in a little over an
8 hour, right, Mr. Carmell?
9 MR. CARMELL: That would be fine. Thank
10 you. So that would be a little before 2.
11 THE HEARING OFFICER: A quarter to 2 or
12 something like that. That would be great.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: It's a good time to break.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: I know he's going to
15 have him on for a while.
16 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was
17 adjourned until 2:00 p.m., this
18 date, July 22, 1997.)
19
20
21
22
23
24
1162
1 OFFICE OF THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER
2 LABORERS' INTERNATIONAL UNION OF NORTH AMERICA
3
4
5 IN RE: )
6 TRUSTEESHIP PROCEEDINGS ) No. 97-30T
7 CHICAGO DISTRICT COUNCIL )
8
9
10 July 22, 1997
11 2:00 p.m.
12
13
14 The hearing resumed pursuant to recess
15 at the offices of the FBI, Chicago Division, 219
16 South Dearborn Street, Chicago, Illinois.
17
18
19 BEFORE: MR. PETER F. VAIRA, Hearing Officer.
20
21
22
23
24
1163
1 PRESENT:
2 COMEY, BOYD & LUSKIN,
3 (1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, N.W.,
4 Washington, D.C. 20007-5243), by:
5 MR. DWIGHT P. BOSTWICK,
6 MR. ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR.,
7 appeared on behalf of the GEB
8 Attorney;
9 CARMELL, CHARONE, WIDMER, MATHEWS & MOSS,
10 LTD.,
11 (225 West Washington Street, Suite 1000,
12 Chicago, Illinois 60606), by:
13 MR. SHERMAN CARMELL,
14 appeared on behalf of the Chicago
15 District Council of Laborers.
16
17 ALSO PRESENT:
18 MS. LAURIE HARTMAN;
19 MR. ERNEST T. LUERA,
20 Federal Bureau of Investigation;
21 MR. JAMES O'ROURKE,
22 MR. JOSEPH E. GRIFFIN.
23 REPORTED BY: JULIANA F. ZAJICEK, CSR 84-2604
24 DONNA S. PAPPAS, CSR 84-2194
1164
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and gentlemen,
2 I guess we can get back on the record.
3 Mr. Bostwick, you were in the middle
4 of examining your witness. Go ahead, sir.
5 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS,
6 called as a witness herein, having been
7 previously duly sworn and having testified, was
8 examined and testified further as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bills. Earlier in
12 your testimony this morning I asked you some
13 questions about a burglary that you participated
14 in with Frank Toots Caruso. Do you recall that
15 testimony?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. And you said that you had been asked
18 by Skids Caruso to return the clothes, is that
19 correct?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Did you have an occasion to talk to
22 Skids Caruso after that?
23 A. Two or three days later.
24 Q. Who was there?
1165
1 A. Toots.
2 Q. Anybody else?
3 A. Skid and Poopy Maenza.
4 Q. Who is Poopy Maenza?
5 A. He was an enforcer for Mr. Caruso.
6 Q. And what happened at that meeting?
7 A. Mr. Caruso warned me not to do nothing
8 in this neighborhood again unless I talked to him
9 and he didn't want his son in any kind of
10 trouble.
11 Q. Let me take you to a slightly
12 different period of time here. Well, first of
13 all, when was that conversation and that burglary
14 about in terms of time?
15 A. In the late '60s, I believe.
16 Q. When growing up, did Frank Caruso, and
17 by that I mean Toots Caruso, ever talk to you
18 about whether he wanted to be associated with the
19 Outfit?
20 A. Toots always wanted to be a boss.
21 That was his goal.
22 Q. How do you know that?
23 A. He told me.
24 Q. Did there come a time when you had a
1166
1 conversation with Toots Caruso at the wake of
2 your uncle?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Who is your uncle?
5 A. Ray Bills.
6 Q. When was this wake about?
7 A. I can't remember. '81 or '83.
8 Q. Early '80s?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Were you associated with a crew at
11 this time?
12 A. I was committing burglaries.
13 Q. On your own so to speak?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Were you -- did you see Frank "Toots"
16 Caruso at this wake?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Who else was there?
19 A. Shorty LaMantia.
20 Q. Anybody else?
21 A. Duke Basile. He was with me.
22 Q. So you had the four of you talking
23 together?
24 A. Yes, sir.
1167
1 Q. Who is Duke Basile?
2 A. A burglarer and he worked in organized
3 crime.
4 Q. You knew him to be involved in
5 organized crime at the time?
6 A. No. He had gotten out like I had done
7 and later on he went back.
8 Q. I see. So you knew him to have had
9 some experience in organized crime at a period of
10 time beforehand and then also later?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. How do you know that?
13 A. Duke told me and I was with him when
14 he was putting the football together and he was
15 collecting money.
16 Q. When you say when he was putting
17 football together, what do you mean?
18 A. He was putting together a football
19 sports office.
20 Q. Betting office?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Bookmaking operation?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. How about Shorty LaMantia, who is he?
1168
1 A. Shorty LaMantia always was kind of an
2 enforcer and a gambler and a juice loan guy and a
3 burglarer for Skid Caruso.
4 Q. So the four of you are together, Toots
5 Caruso, Shorty LaMantia, Dukey Basile and
6 yourself?
7 A. And myself.
8 Q. What's said?
9 A. We were standing out in the lobby and
10 Toots called me. He said wait a minute. He said
11 what are you doing. I said trying to make some
12 money. He said why don't you come back to the
13 neighborhood. Come to work for me. He said I'll
14 make sure you make some money. He said Shorty is
15 with me now.
16 Q. Did you accept that offer?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. What -- why not?
19 A. I didn't want to be around them people
20 anymore.
21 Q. Did you -- which people?
22 A. Organized crime or the Outfit.
23 Q. Prior to this conversation, had you
24 heard from Al Tocco or Billy Dauber that Toots
1169
1 Caruso had risen within the Outfit?
2 A. One of the cars he gave me I gave to
3 Billy to get fixed --
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Billy Dauber?
5 BY THE WITNESS:
6 A. Billy Dauber and he had a chop shop at
7 the time and my garage was full and I gave it to
8 Billy Dauber and he got rid of it and I told him
9 who I got the car from.
10 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
11 Q. Which was who?
12 A. Toots Caruso. And he says, oh, Toots,
13 he is Skids' son. He said yeah. He said, oh, he
14 took the giant step. He has got his own crew.
15 Q. Did you ever talk to Al Tocco about
16 Toots Caruso or not?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. What did Al Tocco say about --
19 A. That since Angelo come back, Toots got
20 to be a big man.
21 Q. Who is Al Tocco?
22 A. I believe he was the under boss of Al
23 Pilotto.
24 Q. Did you testify against both Billy
1170
1 Dauber and Al Tocco?
2 A. I never testified against Billy Dauber
3 because they killed him and his wife. I
4 testified against Al Tocco and Clarence
5 Crockett.
6 Q. Did you testify about activities
7 relating to Billy Dauber in any of your trials?
8 A. I can't remember if I testified about
9 Billy Dauber, but I gave a lot of 302s to the
10 agents.
11 Q. Let me focus on Bruno Caruso for a
12 moment.
13 Did you ever see Bruno Caruso
14 associated with any members -- any people you
15 knew to be members of the 26th Street Crew,
16 members or associates?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. Who?
19 A. Larry Pusiteri, Shorty LaMantia, Donny
20 DiFazio, of course his cousin Leo.
21 Q. What types of occasions or events
22 would you see them together at?
23 A. Different restaurants and the club on
24 26th Street.
1171
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who were those four
2 again, LaMantia --
3 THE WITNESS: Larry Pusiteri.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Pusiteri?
5 THE WITNESS: Shorty LaMantia.
6 THE HEARING OFFICER: LaMantia, DeFazio.
7 THE WITNESS: DeFazio.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: I am missing
9 somebody.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I thought you just said
11 four.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: DiFazio, LaMantia,
13 Pusiteri. I have got three.
14 THE WITNESS: LaMantia, Shorty, you have got
15 that, Larry Pusiteri, Captain D.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: Oh, and he said Leo, his
17 cousin Leo.
18 THE WITNESS: Richie Catazone.
19 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
20 Q. You say also 26th Street. Was that --
21 are you referring to the gambling operation over
22 there?
23 A. No. There was a club. There is a
24 club on 26th Street. It is the Italian American
1172
1 Club. Before it used to be -- it had another
2 name. Later when Angelo come around, they made
3 it the Italian American Club down there.
4 Q. Let me focus on Al Tocco for a
5 minute.
6 What was your relationship with Al
7 Tocco?
8 A. I collected taxes and paid my taxes to
9 him.
10 Q. Who did he -- who did you understand
11 he reported to, Al Tocco?
12 A. Al Pilotto.
13 Q. Do you understand that both of those
14 individuals, Al Tocco and Al Pilotto, were
15 organized crime bosses or under bosses?
16 A. Yes, I did.
17 Q. Did you ever hear that Al Pilotto was
18 involved in union activities?
19 A. I believe he was -- he ran the
20 Laborers' Union out there.
21 Q. How do you -- who did you hear that
22 from or how do you know that?
23 A. From my father, from Al Tocco, from
24 Billy Dauber.
1173
1 Q. What types of -- what types of things
2 do you recall being said about that?
3 A. Just that he was the organized crime
4 boss in the Heights and south side. He was also
5 a leader.
6 Q. That's Al Pilotto?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did there come a time when --
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me interrupt you
10 one second. You mentioned two names, Al Pilotto,
11 just now, but in the same breath you mentioned Al
12 Tocco is involved in union affairs?
13 THE WITNESS: No. Al Tocco was never
14 involved in union affairs. Al Pilotto was.
15 MR. BOSTWICK: I am sorry. I may have asked
16 just Al or something.
17 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
18 Q. Did you -- did there come a time when
19 you bought a chair for Al Tocco?
20 A. Albert used to always complain about a
21 bad back and my partner at the time he was
22 Charles Satoris, so for Christmas we had bought
23 him a chair that rocked back and with a lot of
24 cushions on it.
1174
1 Q. Let me stop you for a minute. Who is
2 Satoris? Who is Mr. Satoris, your partner doing
3 what?
4 A. Chop shops, stolen autos, and we
5 brought the chair out to Albert's place at City
6 Vending and we brought the chair and maybe about
7 10 minutes after we were there Al Pilotto come in
8 and we were kidding. I said to Al, I said, oh,
9 we got him a chair --
10 Q. Which Al?
11 A. Al Pilotto. I said to Al Pilotto, we
12 got him a chair because his back is so bad. And
13 he turned and looked at Al Tocco and he said, oh,
14 he said. They bought the boss a chair. Albert
15 jumped out of the chair. He said, no, no. You
16 are the boss. Here, you sit in the chair.
17 Q. Did that incident reinforce your
18 understanding of the crew structure?
19 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object to that.
20 He said what was said.
21 THE HEARING OFFICER: I understand.
22 MR. BOSTWICK: I do think it is something
23 that he can testify to and that is relevant, but
24 we can also draw our own conclusions.
1175
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: I mean, it is pretty
2 graphic and whether he enforces it or reinforces
3 it, the facts are what the facts are.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. I am going to show you Exhibit 6 and
6 behind tab -- I'll turn you to Tab K and ask you
7 if you recognize that individual?
8 A. Jim Comforti.
9 Q. Did -- can you spell that?
10 A. No, I can't. I don't know how to
11 spell it.
12 THE HEARING OFFICER: Comforti, C-o-m.
13 BY THE WITNESS:
14 A. I am not sure. The pronunciation I
15 got -- I mean, they just said the name really
16 fast, I don't know how to spell it at all, when I
17 met him.
18 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
19 Q. Where have you seen this individual?
20 A. Ron Jarrett had made some kind of
21 burglary.
22 Q. Approximately when?
23 A. In the '60s. And Shorty LaMantia
24 wanted him to give up a certain end of the money
1176
1 to Skid Caruso and he was looking for him and
2 Ronnie was afraid. So he got ahold of me and we
3 took a ride to the neighborhood and my cousin
4 Michael Gurgone was there.
5 Q. This is you, Ronnie Jarrett and?
6 A. Michael Gurgone, my cousin. So we
7 waited on the corner of 31st Street and Shorty
8 pulled up and this gentleman was in the car and
9 we talked it out and Ronnie only had to give up
10 less money than before.
11 Q. Did you give me a time period on that
12 or can you?
13 A. In the '60s.
14 THE HEARING OFFICER: Do you want to run
15 that conversation back. Who was it that wanted
16 him to give up a portion to Skid Caruso?
17 THE WITNESS: Shorty LaMantia was the one
18 who got ahold of him.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: So what did Ron
20 Jarrett do?
21 THE WITNESS: He ran away and called me up.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: And you two, Jarrett
23 and you, did what?
24 THE WITNESS: And Michael Gurgone, my
1177
1 cousin, we went down to the neighborhood and
2 Shorty and this gentleman, Mr. Comforti, pulled
3 up.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Shorty LaMantia
5 and --
6 MR. BOSTWICK: This gentleman in 6K.
7 THE WITNESS: Right here.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Pull up?
9 THE WITNESS: In their car and Shorty said,
10 what are you doing? I said, can't you give him a
11 break? I said, you know he hasn't got that kind
12 of money. They don't make that kind of money.
13 The wind up was Ronnie didn't have to
14 pay as much money and the beef got settled. This
15 gentleman, I just -- I don't know if I am
16 pronouncing his name right or spelling it right
17 or whatever. He is just a guy that I met. Later
18 on I know through other people he became a big
19 boss.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Comforti. That's a
21 common Italian name, Comforti.
22 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
23 Q. Nick Guzzino, do you know him?
24 A. Yes, I do.
1178
1 Q. And --
2 THE HEARING OFFICER: Who are you talking
3 about now?
4 MR. BOSTWICK: Nick Guzzino.
5 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
6 Q. How do you know Nick Guzzino?
7 A. Through Albert Tocco and Billy Dauber.
8 Q. What do you know about Nick Guzzino
9 and any affiliation he might have with organized
10 crime?
11 A. He's one of the crew bosses under Al
12 Pilotto.
13 Q. During what period of time, to your
14 knowledge?
15 A. When I found out about it, it would be
16 '79, '78.
17 Q. Approximately -- well, how do you know
18 that?
19 A. Billy Dauber told me.
20 Q. Anybody else?
21 A. I could tell by the way he was
22 respected by Albert Tocco that he was almost
23 equal to Albert, but not as strong as Albert.
24 Q. You saw him in Al Tocco's presence?
1179
1 A. Right.
2 Q. How about Dominick Palermo, do you
3 know of him?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What do you know about Dominick
6 Palermo?
7 A. He's a boss in the Heights.
8 Q. About what period of time?
9 A. The same period.
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. Different times when I had to meet
12 Albert, they would talk -- Palermo was there,
13 Dominick was there. One time they were talking
14 about --
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Before you go any
16 further, when you had to meet who?
17 THE WITNESS: Albert Tocco.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: You had to meet Al
19 Tocco. Okay. Now, go ahead. You had meetings?
20 BY THE WITNESS:
21 A. In the Heights, once at a restaurant,
22 and they were talking about a whorehouse they
23 were putting together out there, and --
24 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
1180
1 Q. A whorehouse?
2 A. And a lounge, they had it out there in
3 the Heights, on Route 30 or off of Route 30, I
4 think, and they were discussing that and what the
5 guy was going to do in there. Later on that day,
6 we went there.
7 Q. Who is we?
8 A. Me and Albert.
9 Q. For what purpose?
10 A. To have a drink, and he wanted to look
11 over how they set the place up.
12 Q. Michael Palermo?
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: I missed the part
14 about Dominick Palermo. You said you and Tocco
15 were meeting somewhere?
16 THE WITNESS: No. I had to meet Albert
17 Tocco.
18 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay. Mr. Palermo was there.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. I missed that.
21 He was at the meeting?
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE HEARING OFFICER: What took place at
24 that meeting?
1181
1 THE WITNESS: They were talking about some
2 guy opening a whorehouse out there.
3 THE HEARING OFFICER: And what was Palermo's
4 conversation, part in the conversation?
5 THE WITNESS: His part in the conversation,
6 well, how much money is the guy going to put up,
7 how much is he giving us. He also -- they were
8 talking about they had to quiet down -- Albert
9 opened a place called Merlin's, a lounge, and I
10 had met Albert there one time and they were
11 talking about Nick D'Andrea and Albert was
12 telling Dominick that nobody could control
13 D'Andrea, that he had a hot temper and he was
14 always flying off the handle, and Albert was
15 complaining to him about Nick D'Andrea.
16 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
17 Q. Complaining to who?
18 A. To Dominick. They were both
19 complaining. Later on D'Andrea got killed.
20 Q. Michael Palermo, do you know Michael
21 Palermo?
22 A. Dominick's brother.
23 Q. Do you know anything about any ties he
24 might have with organized crime?
1182
1 A. I knew he was almost as equal as his
2 brother.
3 Q. How did you know that?
4 A. Through my father, through Billy
5 Dauber, through Albert.
6 Q. Did you ever see him in any
7 situations, Michael Palermo, like the ones you
8 just mentioned?
9 A. No, this would be just conversation.
10 Q. Do you know Marco D'Amico?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. What do you know about him?
13 A. He's a gambling boss on the west side.
14 Q. During what period of time?
15 A. '79, maybe to '81, '82, I knew.
16 Q. Is this the Elmwood Park area?
17 A. Yes, it is. And he used to go around
18 Grand Avenue, too.
19 Q. Did you ever have any incident with
20 Marco D'Amico?
21 A. I helped him in the fight at the
22 Condesa Del Mar.
23 Q. When was this?
24 A. '79 or '80, I think.
1183
1 Q. How about Robert Cooley, do you know a
2 man named Robert Cooley?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. How do you know him?
5 A. He was a partner with Artie Greco and
6 he was also a lawyer.
7 Q. Partner in what with Artie Greco?
8 A. In his restaurant on 95th Street.
9 Q. What was the restaurant called?
10 A. Greco's.
11 Q. Do you know if Mr. Cooley had any ties
12 to organized crime?
13 A. I heard that he did and I saw him
14 sitting with Butchie Petracelli and Harry Aleman,
15 different -- you know, anybody who was out there,
16 by Greco's, which was an organized crime hangout,
17 plus politicians, they would always say hello to
18 Cooley.
19 Q. Let me refer you to some exhibits, and
20 I think we'll be able to do the same thing we did
21 yesterday, run these by Mr. Carmell. He's going
22 to stipulate simply to their authenticity because
23 they're court documents, but preserve his right
24 to argue about relevance or what have you.
1184
1 The first item I'm going to give you
2 is a lengthy document, Exhibit GEB Attorney
3 Exhibit 109. It's a 90-page indictment
4 against -- well, it's captioned United States
5 versus Albert Tocco and Clarence Crockett, and
6 ask you to just take a look at that briefly.
7 Is that the Albert Tocco we've been
8 talking about?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. CARMELL: They are in, but you're
11 just --
12 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah, that's correct.
13 They're in.
14 BY THE WITNESS:
15 A. Yes, sir, it is.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: He's using them as
17 just further evidentiary purpose.
18 MR. CARMELL: That's fine. I'm just saying
19 they are in.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: They're in.
21 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
22 Q. This next document is GEB Attorney
23 Exhibit 107, which I don't think is in yet. It's
24 71 pages.
1185
1 MR. CARMELL: It is in.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: Is it? Okay.
3 MR. CARMELL: Yes. 107 and 108 I have.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: Let me see that. I
5 think it is.
6 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
7 Q. This is captioned United States of
8 America versus Dominick Palermo and Nicholas
9 Albert Guzzino and a number of other individuals,
10 and I ask you to just take a look at that. Is
11 that the Nicholas Guzzino and the Dominick
12 Palermo we've been discussing?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. Did you testify or provide any
15 information in this matter, in this case?
16 A. I believe they used some 302s of mine
17 to deny Mr. Palermo his bond.
18 Q. Pardon me?
19 A. To deny him a bond when he was going
20 through a sentencing phase.
21 MR. BOSTWICK: This exhibit, GEB Attorney
22 Exhibit 24, I've been wrong on two in a row, I
23 think that this one has not been admitted yet
24 either.
1186
1 MR. CARMELL: That's correct.
2 MR. BOSTWICK: So I'm right one out of
3 three.
4 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
5 Q. This is an indictment that is 58
6 pages, United States of America versus Frank
7 Calabrese, Sr., Frank Calabrese, Jr., and a
8 number of other individuals, and ask you to take
9 a look at this. I believe you've referred to
10 Frank Calabrese in your testimony.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Which one of these Calabreses were you
13 referring to, Frank Calabrese, Senior or Junior?
14 A. Senior.
15 Q. Do you know Junior?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Did you provide -- what was the result
18 in the case against Frank Calabrese, Senior, to
19 your knowledge?
20 A. He pleaded guilty.
21 Q. So you were not asked to testify
22 specifically in a case against Frank Calabrese,
23 Senior?
24 A. No.
1187
1 Q. Were you called to testify in any
2 related matter against any of these
3 co-defendants?
4 A. One of the defendants, I was called to
5 testify about what I knew about the juice
6 business.
7 Q. Well, do you know -- when was that,
8 approximately?
9 A. About three months ago, two months
10 ago.
11 Q. Do you know the result of that matter?
12 A. I believe he was found guilty.
13 Q. Mr. Bills, are you receiving any
14 payment from the union for coming here to
15 testify?
16 A. No, sir.
17 MR. CARMELL: The union?
18 BY THE WITNESS:
19 A. Just expenses.
20 MR. CARMELL: Did you say the union?
21 MR. BOSTWICK: From the union.
22 MR. CARMELL: Oh, I thought he said from the
23 union, not from LIUNA. I'm sorry.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: I did actually say the
1188
1 union. You don't consider LIUNA the union?
2 MR. CARMELL: I didn't know which union you
3 were speaking of.
4 MR. BOSTWICK: Let me clarify that. I
5 thought it was reasonably clear.
6 MR. CARMELL: It was, just not to me.
7 BY MR. BOSTWICK:
8 Q. Are you receiving any money from the
9 Laborers' International or the Inspector
10 General's office or the GEB Attorney's office for
11 your testimony today?
12 A. Expenses to get here.
13 Q. Only travel expenses?
14 A. That's it.
15 Q. As part of any arrangement with the
16 government, are you forced to attend and provide
17 testimony in this process?
18 A. No, sir, I wasn't forced. After I
19 finished Frankie Calabrese's trial, all my
20 obligations to the government were through.
21 Q. Does this testimony involve any
22 increase to your personal risk?
23 A. A lot.
24 Q. Have you ever had threats against your
1189
1 life made?
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. Due to providing testimony relating to
4 organized crime matters?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Mr. Bills, if this is not resulting in
7 any monetary compensation to you and it involves
8 personal risk, why are you doing this?
9 A. I changed my life around. I did a lot
10 of wrong things. I got involved in things that
11 I'm sorry for and this is my way of trying to
12 make it up. That's the best answer I can give
13 you.
14 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't have any further
15 questions of Mr. Bills.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And I
17 understand, Mr. Carmell, you are examining him
18 tomorrow rather than today?
19 MR. CARMELL: Correct.
20 THE HEARING OFFICER: All right. Okay.
21 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to offer which ones
22 of those exhibits --
23 MR. CARMELL: 24.
24 MR. BOSTWICK: 24 I guess is the only one.
1190
1 THE HEARING OFFICER: What's the last one?
2 You testified not too long ago in which case, the
3 Calabrese case?
4 MR. BOSTWICK: It is a lengthy case caption,
5 U.S. v. Calabrese, in which there are a number of
6 defendants. Frankie Calabrese, Senior, the
7 individual he had most personal dealings with,
8 pled guilty.
9 THE HEARING OFFICER: Right.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: One of these individuals went
11 to trial and he testified in that. He just
12 doesn't recall the name of the individual.
13 THE HEARING OFFICER: He said it was like
14 four months ago?
15 MR. BOSTWICK: Yeah, just a few months ago.
16 THE HEARING OFFICER: That's a long case.
17 It's a '95 indictment.
18 THE WITNESS: It took a long time to go on.
19 THE HEARING OFFICER: And he was convicted,
20 I believe.
21 THE WITNESS: He was convicted, yeah.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: What was the
23 individual you testified against?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know. All I testified
1191
1 to -- I didn't even know him, Mr. Vaira. I
2 testified to how Mr. Calabrese's juice business
3 was run.
4 THE HEARING OFFICER: That was part of the
5 testimony?
6 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe, for the record,
7 it's Philip Fiori.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was.
9 MR. BOSTWICK: That's just my
10 understanding.
11 THE WITNESS: Because they asked me did I
12 know him and I said no.
13 MR. BOSTWICK: Just to clear up the record
14 here, is Exhibit 24 admitted?
15 THE HEARING OFFICER: Yes, it's admitted.
16 (WHEREUPON, said document,
17 previously marked GEB Attorney
18 Exhibit No. 24, for
19 identification, was offered
20 and received in evidence.)
21 MR. BOSTWICK: That's all we have for today.
22 THE HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Carmell, we'll
23 wait for you tomorrow again.
24 Let's put on the record for the
1192
1 spectators here that tomorrow is at 9:00 and
2 we're going to do it here, right?
3 MR. BOSTWICK: That's correct. And then
4 following Mr. Bills' cross-examination and
5 redirect, if there is any, we'll go straight over
6 to the hotel and then finish the rest of the day
7 over there.
8 THE HEARING OFFICER: Okay. So the
9 spectators, the union persons who will be over at
10 the hotel, you'll get an audio portion in the
11 morning and then on stage live the rest of the
12 afternoon. Okay. Just so you know. So we start
13 at 9:00 in the morning. Okay. Thank you.
14 (WHEREUPON, the hearing was
15 adjourned until 9:00 a.m., July
16 23, 1997.)
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1193
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS )
2 ) SS:
3 COUNTY OF C O O K )
4 WE, JULIANA F. ZAJICEK and DONNA S.
5 PAPPAS, Certified Shorthand Reporters of the
6 State of Illinois, do hereby certify that we
7 reported in shorthand the proceedings had at the
8 hearing aforesaid, and that the foregoing is a
9 true, complete and correct transcript of the
10 proceedings of said hearing as appears from our
11 stenographic notes so taken and transcribed under
12 our personal direction.
13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I do hereunto set
14 my hand at Chicago, Illinois, this 22nd day of
15 July, 1997.
16
17
18 Certified Shorthand Reporter
19
20 C.S.R. Certificate No. 84-2194.
21
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1194
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS DX CX RDX RCX EXAM
3 ROBERT COOLEY
4 By Mr. Bostwick 1099
5 By Mr. Carmell 1026
6
7 CHARLES FRANCIS BILLS
8 By Mr. Bostwick 1106
9
10
11 E X H I B I T S
12 NUMBER MARKED FOR ID RECEIVED
13 GEB Attorney
14 Exhibit No. 24............................ 1191
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